AusBonsai

Hi All,

Please help, I have a Japanese Black Pine that I let grew without pruning for 2 years.... I think it is very out of shape and I need your help to fix it...
If that is possible of course.....
I only have broadleaves so pines are new to me, I'm not very good at shaping but I'm learning and trying to do my best with the limited time I have.
I purchased this black pine few years ago but I never knew what to do with it... Now that spring is coming I've decided to try and shape it.
In the attempt I read many web sites and I got to the understanding that what I needed to do was to candle pinching and needles plucking...and this is were all went wrong I believe....

I've removed almost all the candles and plucked almost all the inner needles from the branches and now I look at the tree and it looks terrible and I feel really (I'll be posting some photos shortly).

I think I should be cutting back hard now to try to recover and give a proper shape to the tree but I'm too scared and I've read confusing statement on pines not shooting new buds so I'm worried that If I cut the branches and leave then without any needles I'll also kill the branch and possibly the tree?

Please help me I'm confused and I need directions...

Attached a photo...

I'm not going to offer any directions, but I will say thay yes it certainly grown out a lot!!! That said looks to me like good material to work with.

Looks nice and healthy too

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Based on my limited experience, I'd say you might want to chase some of that foliage back (unless you want a really tall tree, in which case the approach will be slightly different).

First of all, unlike broadleaf trees, you must NOT remove all the foliage from any branch you wish to keep. Pines don't bud on branches that have lost the lot - they just kill it off.

If you're not sure about what you want to remove, you could probably go through and happily pluck off a lot of the old needles. This will give you a better idea of what's going on in there. It looks to be a healthy tree, so leaving 10-15 pairs of needles on each branch end will be sufficient to keep that branch end growing/viable (even if you want to cut it off later).

I'd remove all the branches growing in the wrong places/growing in the wrong direction first. Then, go for ones that are obviously too leggy/straight/thick.

Better to remove too few than too many. But the most important thing for you will be to make sure plenty of light and air gets to the interior of the tree's structure - this will allow adventitious budding, which will result in higher quality branches in the end (foliage closer to the tree).

Also, feed the poo out of it after you've cleaned it out some. This will further improve the amount of budding you might get.

If you're really unsure, clean out a lot of the old needles first, feed the poo out of it, then make branch chopping choices in Autumn next year after you've had your two flushes of new growth.

Hope that helps,

Owen

PS Just read that you'd done basically all of what I suggested - don't worry about it looking a bit crap. Pines tend to for a good while (especially between seasons).

2 years free growth is Ok because it will have thickened the trunk a bit but now it is important to prune back hard to force new buds.
If you can identify any obvious unwanted branches then follow Owen and remove them. Otherwise cut every branch and shoot back so you only leave 6-8 pairs of needles on each shoot. New buds will form from the needles you leave but they won't grow unless you do that hard pruning now. Now is a good time to do the hard pruning.
Your tree will look very bare after pruning but that is necessary to recover a bonsai from the overgrown tree. The new buds that form will open into new shoots with needles. Use those to start to form new branching and apex for the tree. Next year will probably be time to start candle pruning and plucking needles.

Definitely what he said

Did you say you removed needles already? Was this the older needles closer to the trunk?

If so do what Shibui has said and cut back hard. Hopefully you will get buds even where you have removed needles. You may have to repeat the hard cut again at the end of the season to encourage these buds and may even get some more. And let grow another season before refining. Feed well.

Keep us updated as you need more advice.

^^^^

Yep, absolutely go with what shibui has suggested. The man definitely knows what he's doing!

Thank you so much! Yes dansai I removed the older needles closer to the trunk which I now understand I shouldn't have...
Ok I'll then cut hard, I was looking at the tree and I think the area I plucked most of the needles from should actually be removed as in picture... do you agree? is this the right thing to do?
Thanks again for all your help I feel that I can still make a good bonsai

To help you see a clearer picture, I suggest you remove all needles growing on the underside of your branches. This will open it up so you can see the tree structure. Once you have a clearer view remove any bar branches etc.. Looking at your picture where you have marked in red the right hand branch for removal. I would say yes, you would probably remove it. But I would still get a clearer look first and then decide what to remove. You can also put some wire on branches to get a better idea of what you want to keep/remove. Its easy to remove and be hasty. But once its gone
looking at the health and growth of the tree. It would not harm the tree to remove all of last years growth. I would also as Shibu has suggested to remove upper needles to 6-8 pairs. And feed both liquid and pellets. Please post more pics once you have a direction you want for it.
Cheers
Kirky

Ok Thank you! I will analyse the tree better and then I'll decide if to prune and I'll post more pics!!
Thank you again!!

We can't see much of the tree structure because of all the foliage but I do agree that you can probably take off the section you have marked. It is long, straight and thick so not really good in the top of the tree. You have plenty of alternative branches that look to have better potential lower down so I doubt that large branch will be useful in any design.

Thanks shibui, I will then study the tree better and post some photos on the weekend when I'll finally have some time to do some work on the tree!!!

I've been doing some pruning during the weekend... I'm again lost and need help.
For the little I know I can't see how to style this Bonsai or what style I should be aiming to.
The position of the branches looks all wrong to me... I'm almost thinking that I should remove all the lower branches and then grow the top and start shaping from there...

Please any suggestion on what I should do it VERY VERY welcome!!!

Don't do it!!! (Cut everything off)

For what it's worth, the branches might be in the traditionally 'correct' places, but pines are super flexible, and with a bit of creative wrenching, you should still be able to get a nice design out of the tree.

The trick though, will be visualising what it will look like in 5 or 10 years time. At this point in time, you will only be setting the bones. Just get the branches in more or less the places you want them to be, and once the Spring and Summer growth happens, you will have a better idea/more to work with. I'm finding JBP spend a lot of time looking like scraggly branches in pots during the development stage. Don't worry, it will come.

Pines aren't quite like broadleaf trees, where you can just hack a branch off and wait for another to grow. A lot of the time, it's about making do until a new option presents itself (whether it's a longer branch up top, or behind the tree, or an adventitious bud producing a better angle for the branch etc. etc.). Hang in there. Have a look at some of the more refined trees in Japan, a LOT of them have/had branches in dodgy spots (it's really due in large part to how pines grow - with branches in a whorl/radiating out on the same plane), some of those flaws have been hidden with foliage, others have been removed once the tree reached a greater stage of maturity (and remember too, much of the more refined material is 100 if not 100's of years old), and in some of the more unusual trees, some of those flaws have even been embraced and become part of the styling.

Be patient. Your tree is still young, an image will come.

Owen

Thanks Owen, do you think that the cutting I've done so far is ok? Did I cut too much? What should I do now? just fertilise every 2 weeks and wait till summer for candle pruning?

Thanks