AusBonsai

G,day folks.

I have been perusing though the pages of the Kokufu Book number 81. As usual the tree's are stunning.

To those that do not know the Kokufu exhibition in Kyoto Museum is the pinnacle for the amateur , Bonsai in Japan. To be selected is like being picked for the Olympics or winning the grand Final.

Anyway when I was looking at the pictures (cause I cant read the Japanese text - just some of the tree names), I noticed some of the 'rules' had been broken.

Like the first branch, one third up the trunk. There is a magnificent Pinus parvifolia (Japanese white pine) formal up right where the first branch is most certainly less and you are hard pressed to see the trunk and branch separation above the soil.
Another example is numerous deciduous tree's that have branches above lower ones that are thicker.
There are tree's that have two head's (apexes or crowns, which ever you prefer), with inverted taper.

Pup

hey mate, as from the pics you posted i can see what you mean. although i think each tree is one i would have in my collection anytime, as for a kokufu entry i can see how you think its not right, if kokufu is the pinnacle of bonsai then i wonder how these placed, surely there is more better specimens out there that could have been entered.

i can see what you mean about that pine aswell although i find t quite mesmerizing the branchs down low seem a bit odd but i think it really works for the tree, i dont think the tree would be as balenced if the branching started from 1/3 of the way up. but if kokufu is as strict as the japanese are with there discipline and way of life i find it hard to see how these got in ?

as for the other two trees that dont follow the rules or guidelines i find them to be quite pleasing to the eye.

maybe i have gone way off topic with this but yea, thats what i think.
and i know its nearly blasphemous to not know much about kokufu in this art of bonsai, but i dont so i will have to make more of an effort and research it


just my opinion anyways.

regards jamie

Some interesting trees there Pup I will transfer them over to the Design Principles thread and have another go at explaining what I see in trees like this.

There are some interesting points there Jamie I get the idea these trees are very much the masterpiece but in a style that may be a little foreign to some and I would not apologise for not knowing much about the kokufu.
I could not say I know much either except that it is a long running high ranking bonsai competition in an eastern country Bonsai's reach is very far and knowing every competition is not a prerequisite to enjoying the hobby.

well thats very true, a masterpiece can be seen very differently to different people in their own rights. im sort of glad im not the only one that doesnt know much about kokufu.
now this may seem like an odd question, but here we go anyway.

is it possible that the quality of choice has degenerated slightly over the years that this has been running? what i mean by this has the scrictness of the rules and disipline of the exhibition started to change over time like everything does, as an old saying goes, some rules were never ment to be broken. on that it doesnt mean they cant be bent? im just thinking a little bit outside the square to try and figure out why these sort of entries have been allowed, as pup has stated that clearly there are some faults in these trees as beautiful as they are.
some more distracting then others but overall like i said, i still find these trees to be quite pleasent to the eye. if i had any one of them i could sit for hours just looking at it

i guess this is just all food for thought and my own opinion but i thought i might just throw it out there anyways.


regards jamie

The thing about nature is that it has no rules. It is so very random.

I understand the need for a set of guidelines to help those of us without artistic intuition in the basic formation of trees and to prevent dramatic tree loss so as to discourage anyone from ever continuing. There is little doubt in my opinion that if you were to live long enough and take the time you could find inspiration for these examples in nature. Although the last one would be one monumental tree imagine how intimidating it would be to walk under such a monster!

In my other life I practice Aikido and we too have rules for where your feet should be and where a hand is placed relative to your partner it helps to teach the basics and also prevents loss of limbs. As you improve you learn to adjust and if your foot is in the wrong place its ok because you adjust your weight to compensate.
The better you are, the more "rules" you break and still get a strong result. The older I get the less movement I have and the more instinct I use in my self defence techniques and though I use less formal movement it looks cleaner and works better.

I think bonsai is the same.

No matter how much logic is involved in a set of rules they are still arbitrary, at some point somebody decided 1/3 and not 3/10, ultimately the language we use dictates the degrees to which a rule is a rule or is it a guideline. Each group sets their own standards and as leaders change so does the emphasis of which standards are enforced and which are not.

The better you are the less you rely on rules and the more you rely on instinct, each tree may not be the best tree according to a set of rules, but it will certainly be the best that tree can be. (in your care)

As for how that relates to the competition, well who cares really, they are all fantastic trees and their designers no doubt see this as the essence of each tree.

There is definately a place for the rules. This forum has challenged me to relook at the design rules and realign some of my trees because I have strayed to a point where I have lost some beauty. I am not yet good enough to trust my instinct, but I intend to challenge the rules with some of my trees to learn new instincts.

When I look at Pups native trees, I have little doubt that much experimentation went into finding the new rules for these trees. Pup has clearly developed instincts which go beyond the rules. (hes not the only one. just one who comes to mind)

My 20 cents worth,

PS if you made it to the end of this long post, thanks for "listening"!

I am sure I could explain and critique these trees much better if I was more experienced but I will do my best.

I think this statement about eastern culture is very important

"Hints and suggestions are considered better guides than obvious directions"

The guys that gave us the rules just think different to us. If one aspect of a tree seems to go against the simple rules we where given it is used as an example that breaking the rules is OK. Nothing is noted about how every other aspect of the tree is textbook design principles. As I have said before turn these trees to the side view and tell me the design principles have been ignored.
What we can see is what appears to be a tree which mostly followes the rules but we can point something out that does not seem to. I see two things to think about here. Has a design principle really been broken? think of the quote above. As I start to explore these rules I always like to consider what is the rule actually hinting, what is it's purpose what happens if it is not followed what is the essence of the rule. If a branch comes from the back but looks like it is to the side is the rule broken? It gives the same effect so I think not although extra consideration must be given as to weather the path taken there is obtrusive. The essence of the rule is still there. A branch that crosses the trunk seems against the rules but that rule is there to ensure a uninterrupted view of the trunk. If you are able to cross the trunk without spoiling it's view the design principle has not been broken. Why do we not spoil the view of the trunk ? So that our eyes can travel along the trunk and the story is not paused or interrupted. Maybe it is possible that you can tell the story veering away from the trunk and following the branch that crosses it. Surely possible but only someone with an exceptional understanding of how to use the design principles could pull it off.
Then there are the ones where some could say well if we really look it does kind of spoil the effect but I still like the tree. I think movies are a great comparison here. In bonsai we are telling a story of the tree and in a Movie that also tells a story I would say it is a rule that we don't won't a cadillac driving through a western but are we really going to be upset if we see something that is only slightly out of context but allows the movie to make sense or is needed for the plot?
Some times it comes down to taste the double apex tree is very impressive and it would take a brave artist to re-design it but I am sure there are some out there that would like the challenge. But if it was continued to be styled in this fashion I am sure this would make the artist think harder about the apex rule so as to manage it and not just ignore or try to forget it. There is a branch towards the top on the left that seems very large yet the one below it oposit the start of the twin apex is very small compared, is this to help the acceptance of the other apex. This to me is understanding the rules not trying to forget them.
The deciduous with the heavy branch above a light one on the left. If this tree was given to me to work on I would think very hard about the rule of heavy branches are lower before I did any work on it. Maybe I would incorporate some of the left and right side branch placement and weight design principles to offset this paradox to bring ultimate balance. Would the tree be as interesting without this design I think not but I also think it needs more balance in some way to make the story flow better. So I might prune accordingly to ease the magnitude of the difference. To understand that most rules are not black and white and can be manipulated often with the help of other rules is in no way forgetting them it is taking their understanding further and whether you analyze these decisions as we tend to in the west or think of them as hints and suggestions as in the east I think the end result is very similar but we confuse ourselves by trying to think too much like an Easterner.

I like that Brett - nice thoughts. Not sure Ill get much sleep tonight as I ponder some of this.
We have a grading tomorrow morning and I have to apply the rules of aikido. I wonder how I will judge them differently after thinking on this topic!

i think you have both done very well in explaing these conundrums. very well done guys. it seems like pup put pandora's box out and i might have opened it...
with all the rules or guidelines and design principals it does come down to whether it balences out better by bending the rules or folling them to a T.
when you put it into context like you have it shows a far greater knowledge of the practice then myself!
reading your posts have definatly opened my eyes up and im sure many others that these sort of things have a way of balancing out.

i will keep reading this topic as it goes. i am finding it very interesting with a lot of thought put into.

regards jamie

"beauty is in the eye of the beholder"
nature has no rules , except us.
if we had no rules, nothing could be broken,
only a branch here and there.

strawbs

I am glad you moved it Brett, but the full context was missed. Though aptly covered by the comments. My first comments were some of the best tree's in the world would not pass muster under the WESTERN rules.

One of these tree's is considered an important Bonsai Masterpiece. I have not seen the standard decline it is just changing.
The Standard of tree's is superb, as I said some western concepts have been changed.

Hartos summed it up beautifully, with the comment ( or that is how I interpreted it ) as you get older you are less fluid in movement so you adjust not break the rules.
Manipulate them to suit the tree. Or in Hartos case his movements.

If this helps us to understand them more then my worries over the other issue are needless.

Pup

Pup wrote:G,day folks.

I have been perusing though the pages of the Kokufu Book number 81. As usual the tree's are stunning.

To those that do not know the Kokufu exhibition in Kyoto Museum is the pinnacle for the amateur , Bonsai in Japan. To be selected is like being picked for the Olympics or winning the grand Final.

Pup

Hi pup,

Are you talking about the Gafu-ten which is held in Kyoto or Kokufu-ten which is held in the Metropolitan Art Museum in Ueno Park in northeastern Tokyo? The later being the no. 1 bonsai show in Japan if not the world. The reason i ask is after seeing the pics you posted i would be keen on getting myself a copy of the album.

Gafu-ten has albums with around a4 size grey cloth cover with no pics on it and Kokufu-ten has albums that are more of a squareish rectangle with printed colour dust jackets. I think if your album is no 81 it is probably from Kokufu-ten but would love you to confirm.

Hey Pup I didn't move them or edit the posts that was Steven he made the arena I just walked in I enjoy discussing this with you in any context though
Jamie made his comments before the post was edited I believe.

Hartos summed it up beautifully, with the comment ( or that is how I interpreted it ) as you get older you are less fluid in movement so you adjust not break the rules.
Manipulate them to suit the tree. Or in Hartos case his movements.

I think this is where we disagree Pup. You seem to suggest that when a tree does not fit into the rules that we manipulate the rules and that is breaking them. I say the rules already allow for that manipulation but as Easterners believe

"Hints and suggestions are considered better guides than obvious directions"

When we read the rules we don't get that. We as westerners take them as face value and don't look for what is hidden beneath the rules.
They are a pretty amazing bunch of rules when you realise that they do actually work and there is specific purpose to them all.

If you take Hartos movements as a comparison only someone who fully understands the rules and knows why they are there can take them further and use that to come up with a style of his own. At no time does he ignore the rules or try to forget them he takes them to a new level. If his aging body does not allow him to follow a rule some where I believe he would compensate with precautions in another way because he understands why that rule is there he is able to ensure that reason is covered in some other way. This is not breaking the rules it is using your exceptional understanding of them to make sure your technique works.
Just as in bonsai only when you have a exceptional understanding of the rules can you manipulate a tree to make faults actually improve the tree.

Jamie we have enjoyed this discussion for a while here at ABC and you will find other examples that have been put forward in the first thread Understanding Bonsai Design Principles
viewtopic.php?f=96&t=807

Jow wrote:

Pup wrote:G,day folks.

I have been perusing though the pages of the Kokufu Book number 81. As usual the tree's are stunning.

To those that do not know the Kokufu exhibition in Kyoto Museum is the pinnacle for the amateur , Bonsai in Japan. To be selected is like being picked for the Olympics or winning the grand Final.

Pup

Hi pup,

Are you talking about the Gafu-ten which is held in Kyoto or Kokufu-ten which is held in the Metropolitan Art Museum in Ueno Park in northeastern Tokyo? The later being the no. 1 bonsai show in Japan if not the world. The reason i ask is after seeing the pics you posted i would be keen on getting myself a copy of the album.

Gafu-ten has albums with around a4 size grey cloth cover with no pics on it and Kokufu-ten has albums that are more of a squareish rectangle with printed colour dust jackets. I think if your album is no 81 it is probably from Kokufu-ten but would love you to confirm.

My Bad Ueno Park Kokufu ten. The album is definatly a Kokfu number 81.Sorry

Brett
It is your right to disagree if you do not see it as you think. The rules are not hard and fast as I have said many time's. They are guidelines, and the word Manipulate is a great example of what I said.

1 to to handle manage, or use. especially with skill.

2 to manage , influence or change cleverly.

3 for one;s own advantage.

4To manipulate people, or prices.

5 Or manipulate the spine as in physiotherapy.

So you see the word is as exactly the right way of saying if it does not fit.
Manipulate. Or in many cases where in my working life the Draught person had not been on site, and did not see the beam in the way. So we had to manipulate past it.
Find another way to make it work. So it is with our tree's some will have every thing where you want it especially if you start from seed.

So you can Manipulate it from day one. Yamadori is a different proposition. These tree's are a great example of Manipulation.

Pup