Carving discussion on deciduous trees

[63pmp]

Mojo Myogi said in a different thread:

I don't usually like to see carved out trunks, jin and shari on deciduous trees. It seems at the moment it is very much in vogue to shredding away at the trunk of a deciduous tree, often for the sake of it, to the detriment of any possible design

I personally don’t mind carving on deciduous trees as long as it’s appropriate. Most dead wood carving is inappropriate, often done under the misconception that it “ages” the tree. Right now I think we are seeing more carving as more people are collecting garden trees and feel a need to hide the chop. Garden trees are notorious for non-tapering trunks and having a high first branch. My thoughts are that most carving results are poor because they don’t take enough wood off, they leave the thick cylindrical base of the trunk. I don’t think this works, perhaps they do it this way because they fear the trunk rotting out.

Any thoughts from those that carve a lot?

[krazykangaroo]

I personally like a lot of carving on trees, deciduous or otherwise. I see a few really old deciduous trees here around old settlers cottages with big shari and jin like areas/branches so I don't see the problem on bonsai.
My thoughts come from looking at/admiring bonsai, I don't have the experience or confidence yet to try it out myself.

[63pmp]

Krazy,

So any carving is good?

Everyone else,

I don't carve, never really have. But I've thought about it a lot with my trees, whether it would improve their appearance. I have often wondered how people plan these things, do they look at perspective? Or whether the shari is to be the main feature or not? Whether a small hole would appropriate as opposed to half the bark being stripped off?

Seems that most people tend to balance the visual strength of the shari with the foliage, I'm not sure this works aesthetically either. I feel it should be either dominant or submissive, not equal.

Please don't take this as an attack on Mojo, I just quoted him so that we could get a discussion on carving of deciduous trees. I know many people do it, every bonsai-ist thinks about it, and so far there has been 13 views and only one comment.

Paul

[MasonC]

I have been experimenting a bit on my trees and I like carving if its done to the right amount. I hate seeing trees that have been completely carved to just a smalllive vein but I also hate seeing plants that have big thick trunks and have just a little bark scrpaed off the trunk. I also don't like seeing lime sulphur on deciduous. Just my opinion!

[63pmp]

Nothing wrong with an opinion, I've got lots. And thanks for your input, this is a subject that will have lots of different opinions.

But I'm kind of confident there is a right and wrong way of doing things, such as a large shari on a young looking tree would not look right.

I found an example of a tree used for demonstration where most of the trunk has been shari-ed, except for the bit on the bottom. In my mind the dead wood here would extend to the soil level and below, not stop at some point above the soil line.

http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATJuni ... Series.htm

I'm not so much interested in the design, just why he left that bit at the bottom, it's a juniper after all, it will soon die off, if it hasn't already. But you often see something similar on deciduous bonsai, and not always so close to the roots, is there a reason for this or is it just a meme?

Paul

[Gerard]

I have never really attempted carving or jins on deciduous trees, my fear is that it looks too contrived. I will continue to practice on my pines and junipers where I think it is more natural. When the time comes and I have a situation where I feel it is appropriate I will have a go but not "try hard" deadwood. In recent times I have seen some magnificent hollows carved where braches once were, but this is way beyond me at this stage. Four weeks ago I dug an english elm (just budding now)
this will be my first attempt at deciduous carving as mother nature has already started
Gerard

[63pmp]

Masonc,

When you carve, do you consider whether it will draw the eye, or effect movement of the tree? How does it fit in with the design?


Gerard,

Its interesting to see natural shari of a broken trunk, and the healing tissue at the base of the dead wood, which is what I've been talking about. It seems the wood is rotten here though. How will this influence the roots here several years down the track? Do you need to carve this deadwood?

[Gerard]

the deadwood down the front is very soft, however there is a layer of live bark 1 cm above soil level which will hopefully prevent rotting down at root level

[Petra]

I always thought carving was more appropiate for pines and large trees, like camphalorels, oaks and australian black butts and some of the redwoods and giant gum trees. It doesnt look right on some of the fruit trees that i have seen. In my opinion it doesnt age the tree at all. It just draws attention to the hole instead. Unless its in the right tree, then its not a good look.

[Asus101]

**** it.

[MasonC]

Paul,
When I carve I consider whether it will look natural and pleasing to the eye. I try to make it look exactly as it would in nature. For example, if I had a pine or juniper I would make a jin or shari because in nature the branch snaps off and becomes bleached by the sun, but on a deciduous species (maples) the branch would fall of and take some the trnk with it, leaving a hollow in the trunk.

[Deadwood]

Heres my two cents,

Bonsai is an artform and therefore dictated by the artist. I ( in case you havent already noticed ) am a fan of carving and deadwood in the design of a tree if the design, not the type of tree suits it.

At the end of the day if you like it do it, if you do not like it don`t do it.

I try to have my trees tell a story, traditionally in the designs I have they are not love stories, they are stories of hardship and struggle. Each to his own.

Ad.

[Jamie]

ok heres my two cents

with bonsai, whether it is coniferous or deciduous, a tree might have the need of being carved, i myself havent got a tree with massive ares of deadwood, yet, personally if it looks like it will fit in the overall design where you can look the tree up and down and not stop because something distracts you, like deadwood, or a branch that isnt right or just the overall effect then it probly isnt needed. or something needs to be done, deadwood in deciduous is something else. if you look in nature you will se many trees with uro and hollows where a branch has died and then eventually rotted off, or something has gotten to the trunk be it rot or some form of pest, and the base could not support the trunk anymore and the trunk now is gone, i have a trident maple that i just recently bought (see here viewtopic.php?f=104&t=2309&p=23744&hili ... uro#p23744 ) this little trident has a larger chop on it, now my personsal opinion for this tree is that where the cut is is a better front. so how do i fix this, one i can put it in a grow pot and wait a few years to let it heal over with a bit of help, or 2. carve out the trunk to create a hollow trunk imitating what i just said earlier about the base not being able to support the trunk.
now i am leaning to the carve out and to create a hollow trunk as i think this will create a much more dramatic and dynamic design

fly posted a great example of a hollowed out trident done by walter pall. as for the topic, i think if it will fit into the trees overall design, then it can work well, on that note i think careful consideration should be taken and a lot of time thinking about this as once carved you cant go back.

any way what i have just said is a lot of food for thought so i will let it sink in and keep following this post as i am quite interested in the opinions and thoughts others have on this topic

regards jamie

[Asus101]

Paul,
When I carve I consider whether it will look natural and pleasing to the eye. I try to make it look exactly as it would in nature. For example, if I had a pine or juniper I would make a jin or shari because in nature the branch snaps off and becomes bleached by the sun, but on a deciduous species (maples) the branch would fall of and take some the trnk with it, leaving a hollow in the trunk.

Something that everyone forgets to do is to look at where exactly the tree's natural habitat actually is. Not all pines can handle jins, they are soft wood like most deciduous tree's.
I had done a large post earlier, but it kept disapearing, hence the ****. What I was attempting to post was sorta covered in the above post by jamie.
You will most often find deciduous tree's with hollows and split trunks. They will not be bleached white, but will be dark (look in your compost heap, you will see rotting material and its colour). While the Elm that has generated this discussion is a good looking tree the sculpted bleached deadwood screams unnatural. A hollow or split, sure... but wood simulating bleached and scoured deadwood shaped by wind, snow or sand... it just doesnt make sense on a tree that grows in large wet area's in Europe. Moisture and soft wood dont mix...

Pines will loose long bits of deadwood, leaving stumps but will keep shari well. If you read John Naka's bonsai techniques or any old bonsai today mag. you will find many articles on it.
Junipers over 100 years old will hold extensive deadwood better than young junipers (Kimura claims not to carve any juniper under 100years due to this).

Its not hard to find inspiration both from nature and bonsai from native conditions. We are too busy dictating design onto a tree instead of the tree doing the talking.

There are few deciduous tree's with wood hard enough to keep such things. Two most common would be Larch which is often collected with mass deadwood and Prunus Mume.

[Jamie]

asus, you said pretty much what i was thinking.. minus the ramblings thanks pal!


regards jamie