AusBonsai

Having never attempted a group planting or deciduous bonsai before I thought why not combine the two and see how I go. I collected some seed last year not knowing what I was collecting, I believe they are some kind of Ash. So after germination I put them all into a pot until I decided what to do with them.
They came from an public walking track in a now dry Volcanic lake, an area I now walk frequently, this was my first introduction to deciduous on moving to Sth. Aust.

First pic at 3 months, second today at 8 months, they have grown like weeds so far so hopefully I can keep them alive for the duration I'm sure to learn a lot along the way.


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Hi PWC,

Agree they look like ash. As you've noticed they grow very fast. If you give them some root room, they will get thick quickly. If you want some difference in trunk thickness, you are going to have to slow some down. Good luck with them.

terryb wrote: ↑April 13th, 2020, 1:56 pm Hi PWC,

Agree they look like ash. As you've noticed they grow very fast. If you give them some root room, they will get thick quickly. If you want some difference in trunk thickness, you are going to have to slow some down. Good luck with them.

Thanks Terry,

There is a great variation of both height and trunk thickness already, the smallest 7 mm trunk 150 mm tall,largest 15 mm trunk 350mm tall. I imagine this to be a combination of genetic variability and the amount of sunlight that the smaller one receive as they are blocked by the stronger growing ones. Would this remain the case as they mature or do you think they would even out over time? What methods would you employ to ensure the size differential.Would root reduction and and foliage reduction of the smaller ones on an ongoing basis be successful or would it be detrimental to the overall health of the trees in question.

Any other input most welcome.

I know that with ash in south Australia, you can cut all the leaves and all the roots, and they will still likely continue to thrive (might take a bit longer if cutting the roots completely though)
I think you'll find that as long as they are kept how they are, in the same container together like that, then the stronger ones will continue to power on and the smaller ones will take a bit longer, staying smaller. That's what I've found to be the case with ash.

juan73870 wrote: ↑April 13th, 2020, 7:17 pm I know that with ash in south Australia, you can cut all the leaves and all the roots, and they will still likely continue to thrive (might take a bit longer if cutting the roots completely though)
I think you'll find that as long as they are kept how they are, in the same container together like that, then the stronger ones will continue to power on and the smaller ones will take a bit longer, staying smaller. That's what I've found to be the case with ash.

I'll be leaving them in this container through the next growing season and probably try leaf control on he smaller ones and the larger to go unheeded to retain or increase the size gap. This will hopefully give the impression of an age gap in the group.

Great to have you in the competition PWC - thanks for joining.

In relation to your question about size differential ... and my normal caveat... there's nothing scientific about my answer - my evidence is only groups/forests that I grow. I am constantly surprised how trees in groups - that start at approximately the same age and similar size, change over time - creating natural and beautifully subtle variation. I guess it's a combination of genetics and light as you say. In edition, I believe it's about competition for nutrients under the soil and the way we manage the trees too. On that latter point - I'll find myself allowing trees in the centre/front to reach for growth and trees on the out to be cut back shorter to branches reaching out sideways to find light. I believe this constant action also contributes to size variation as the more vigorous centre trees thicken more quickly (perhaps I'll leave a fewer lower limbs the trees I am allowing to thicken too).

Terry and others may have different and more informed thoughts too.

Enjoy the comp PWC.

Thanks Mark, for me success in this competition will be making the finish line. It would take a Steve Bradbury like event for me do o.k. in this one and I wouldn't wish that on the good folk here.

PWC wrote: ↑April 13th, 2020, 4:56 pm Would this remain the case as they mature or do you think they would even out over time? What methods would you employ to ensure the size differential.Would root reduction and and foliage reduction of the smaller ones on an ongoing basis be successful or would it be detrimental to the overall health of the trees in question.

I wouldn't expect them to even out over time, however, as the roots fill up the pot you may have a harder time trying to get the water in. Don't forget that at some point you also need to get them into a shallower pot. There is no issue working the roots on these over winter and you can cut back over the growing season. I know some growers in Adelaide with more mature trees defoliate multiple times over the growing season. You could always move some to different size pots and keep some together to get even more variation.

PWC wrote: ↑April 14th, 2020, 7:37 am Thanks Mark, for me success in this competition will be making the finish line. It would take a Steve Bradbury like event for me do o.k. in this one and I wouldn't wish that on the good folk here.

The comp has encouraged you to explore something new, so take the opportunity to learn about the species and if this effort doesn't quite work out, perhaps the next one will.

terryb wrote: ↑April 14th, 2020, 6:39 pm You could always move some to different size pots and keep some together to get even more variation.

Thanks for the advice I will do as suggested, seems like a good way to keep control initially until they are are placed into a shallower pot.

Now it's dormant i'm reasonably happy with the range of varying sizes of both trunk and heights. I plan to root prune late winter, at this point I am not sure what the final arrangement will be. I will leave them in approximately the same positions and see how they develop. There looks like plenty of buds for branch development.

I'm looking forward to the next growing season to see how much more growth they put on, not sure If I will be able to get a basic branch structure in place. it may be a bit early as they are just 12 mths old now.

Looking good PWC.

In relation to final placement (or indeed placement for the next re-potting) makes sense to leave them in a similar position - at least to start - as this is looking cool.

One hack that I use with my forests is to take multiple phone photos (from each side and sometimes on corner angles) close-up at soil level. Sometimes photos of singular bonsai are are not that helpful because you cannot really sense the 3D nature of a tree. However, with group/forest plantings - I find photos from all angles quite helpful - especially in young plantings. These close up photos provide a good sense the interplay between trunks and how the different thicknesses and placement provide a sense of depth (or not) as the case may be.

Sometimes when planting our groups we can't see the forest for the trees (as the saying goes) but in my experience, this is one area photos seem to help. See whether of not that helps with your next planting or indeed, with any other groups you or others create.

MJL wrote: ↑June 16th, 2020, 7:51 pm One hack that I use with my forests is to take multiple phone photos (from each side and sometimes on corner angles) close-up at soil level. Sometimes photos of singular bonsai are are not that helpful because you cannot really sense the 3D nature of a tree. However, with group/forest plantings - I find photos from all angles quite helpful - especially in young plantings. These close up photos provide a good sense the interplay between trunks and how the different thicknesses and placement provide a sense of depth (or not) as the case may be.

Thanks for the tip, I found this to be the most interesting front after turning it through 360 degrees, the benefit of a round pot. I am considering a two group option 6 - 3 or 5 - 4 , possibly two levels.

Off to a good start PWC.

The angle you've chosen shows all the trunks and there's a good variation in the gaps between the trees. At repotting time you have the opportunity to place them exactly where you want, so you have a bit of time to plan ahead. I find drawing the pot from above and playing with the placements on paper can really help. Create sub groups, each with a primary tree toward the front.

In my backyard I find that Ash trees are the first to shoot in Spring, often in late July, so be ready with the pots and potting mix! Also, if you take out the top bud on any of your trees, this will encourage side shoots.

Matt.

Matt S wrote: ↑June 17th, 2020, 11:34 am I find that Ash trees are the first to shoot in Spring, often in late July, so be ready with the pots and potting mix!

Would putting all the smaller trees together in one pot and the larger in individual pots be a reasonable way to keep variation in sizes under control. Then bring them together after the root work in winter 2021?

Would putting all the smaller trees together in one pot and the larger in individual pots be a reasonable way to keep variation in sizes under control. Then bring them together after the root work in winter 2021?

Sounds like a good plan to me.