AusBonsai

Need some assistance/advice on when/how to carve. Not so much time of year as there is a lot of differing options on this. I have already found some say winter, some say late summer, some say late winter spring, etc…. So obviously varying opinions on what time of year is best.
What I have are your typical collected yamadori straight cuts, on now well established stumps that have been left to recover. No work has been done to them.
Am I better to start work ie selecting branches and styling first or am I better of to start carving the straight edge and then start selecting branches?
Collected trees are Small leaf English Elm, Olives, Blackthorn and Hawthorn’s.
Also once carved, am I to leave the carved area to dry out or should I seal where the live edge is?
I know I obviously would not seal the carving itself this would be left to dry and then seal with wood hardener at a later date.
Next question am I better to stain carved area with something like Indian ink, charcoal etc… while carving is fresh or would I do that once the carving is dry in say 12 months before using wood hardener.
Last question do all trees need wood hardener or just the soft wood trees?
Any and all help appreciated, thanks guys n gals
Cheers
Kirky

I usually carve in winter because...

there is little or no foliage to get in the way/damaged depending on the species,

it's a time of year when not much else is going on and I need to tinker,

I usually burn the area with a butane burner (to harden the wood and give the carving a more aged appearance) so best done when I won't burn leaves,

it is the time of year that works for me.

Jan

I usually carve in winter because...

there is little or no foliage to get in the way/damaged depending on the species,

it's a time of year when not much else is going on and I need to tinker,

I usually burn the area with a butane burner (to harden the wood and give the carving a more aged appearance) so best done when I won't burn leaves,

it is the time of year that works for me.

Re your questions...

I carve/burn first style later as I then have a better idea where I'm going with the tree and to keep my options open in case I damage/break/burn anything unintended,

I harden wood by burning and let nature take care of the sealing (note I usually only carve deciduous trees).


Jan

I think it depends what you mean by 'carve'

To me carving is to make a feature of deadwood. Make an area that looks like it died yeas ago and has started to rot away or been sculpted by the elements, or bugs.
When to do that depends on what you have to work with as it will usually become a feature of the tree so it needs to fit in and compliment the rest of the structure. You may need to wait until you have decided on the front and where branches will be but provided you know where most branches and new apex will be going you can start carving.
It is not necessary to seal the edges of carved areas. Generally don't want the tree to heal over the great work you've done. I apply lime sulphur as a traditional preservative and whitener as soon as the exposed surfaces are dry - after a day or 2, sometimes straight after carving. The aim is to preserve the exposed wood so treating sooner is better. Wood hardener is a newer product which I have not used on bonsai so not sure how useful it is on fresh wood. It may have more value to treat wood that has already been infected and started to soften and rot.

That's very different from cutting back a trunk chop closer to a new leader so it will heal over better. This procedure can be done any time after the new leader is growing strong enough that cutting closer will not damage it or compromise sap flow from stump to new leader. You don't need the new branches to decide how and where to do this reduction carving. Just taper the old trunk into the new leader. New growth of the leader will help heal the cut so best to make the reduction before you develop the leader and branches.
I seal these reduction cuts as soon as possible after making them. Keeping the live cambium edges protected speeds up progress of healing over the cut. I seal the entire cut as sealer seems to provide protection to the exposed heartwood and slows decay. Cambium does not grow over soft or rotten wood.

Thanks Neal, the tops are about 5-6 inches across and the English Elm is a twin trunk approx eight inches across perhaps more. All the collected trunks are too big across in my opinion for one leader without some carving. Your suggestions would work on a smaller trunks, I understand a new leader would then taper on a smaller trunk. But these are too large I think they need more carving as a feature of distress and then new growth tapering out to create a new leader.
Cheers
Kirky

Given the larger sized stumps you would not expect the cuts to heal over completely without many years of growing so that leaves carving the existing trunk to give a weathered dead wood effect.
This type of carving will almost certainly be used as part of the design, usually as a prominent feature. That means it must fit in with the final design of the bonsai.
Sometimes you can do the carving then try to grow the branches and canopy to suit the dead wood feature.
Given that your trees are already recovering from collection you may already have some ideas for the shape and size of the bonsai which will give some indications as to size, shape and extent of the carving you can do.

For feature dead wood there is no need to seal any edges. Sealing helps the tree heal and you don't want your trees to heal over featured dead wood so no need for any sealing, even round the edges.
Carving on trunks needs to consider natural sap flow from roots to branches. Cutting connection from root to branch will result in death of the branch and often the root too.
Sap can change flow paths given some time to adjust but generally avoid sharp angles and change of direction along the edges of shari unless it's clear that is the direction sap already flows.
Ink is used to avoid the stark white bleaching caused by traditional lime sulphur wood preservative treatment. You can apply ink direct to the wood before lime sulphur or mix a little in with the lime sulphur before painting it on. The wood only needs a couple of days to dry enough to absorb enough liquid for an initial treatment. Both treatments need to be repeated several times each year so you'll get plenty of opportunity to experiment to get the right shades.
Wood hardeners are mostly acrylic resin that soaks into the wood then dries. Designed to penetrate and harden very soft or rotted wood your wood will probably need to be dry to absorb enough.
I've only ever used lime sulphur as a preservative on bonsai so not sure what effects wood hardener will give on fresh dead wood. Preservative is used on all woods, hard, soft, conifers, etc to slow deterioration. Some woods are naturally longer lived but preservative will ensure they stay looking good for longer. Starting treatment early will save battling softer, rotted wood later.
Note that soft wood does not always mean less durable than harder wood. Some confers have soft wood but also have resins, etc that reduce rot. Callistemon has relatively hard wood but has also been one of the least durable woods in my bonsai.

Excellent thank you Neil, you are heading me in the direction I was wanting information on. Your right in saying I am looking to create a feature of dead wood more so than carving. I still need to carve the dead wood feature. I asked the wrong question
The creation and after care of dead wood features is what I was really after. You’ve given me even more to think about now with regards to sap flow. I see a lot of trial and error in my future plan.
There’s a carving work shop this weekend that I will need to attend and more reading before I start I think.
Cheers
Kirky

shibui wrote: ↑May 12th, 2022, 9:32 pm Note that soft wood does not always mean less durable than harder wood. Some confers have soft wood but also have resins, etc that reduce rot. Callistemon has relatively hard wood but has also been one of the least durable woods in my bonsai.

Fun fact: balsa wood is a hardwood.

Hardwood = from angiosperms, or flowering trees. The wood lacks resin canals.
Softwood = from gymnosperms (conifers, etc.). The wood lacks pores.

/nerd out

Most of my carving is on olives which is fairly dense, sappy and durable so I'm not sure how useful any of my experiences are! I also use a little butane torch (from the kitchen, when my wife isn't looking) to help preserve carved wood, and it gives a nice appearance too. I've also used lime sulfur + black India ink. Generally I apply the lime sulfur first, and then India ink a day or two later. I dilute the ink with Earl's wood hardener (from the big green shed) - not sure how effective that product is at preserving wood but it says it works!

Lately I've tried using little tubes of super glue which seems to work well. Initially it comes out shiny but dulls after a while in the weather, or I go over it with the Dremel using a wire brush attachment to dull it. Wear gloves when you apply it, or rub your hands with baby oil first.

From what I've read lime sulfur isn't great at preserving wood - its preserving properties are very short-lived, ie. a week or so. To prevent rot in something soft like wisteria, ficus, etc. it'd be better to try Earl's or the super glue.

Thanks Greg, the Olive was the one I was lest worried about. I thought the wood would be very durable as it is hard to carve. I have a little butane torch
Cheers
Susan

I have taken to leaving the deadwood to rot away as naturally as possible - provided the live wood has enough bulk to keep the tree structurally sound.

Below is a Cotoneaster. It has a little grub chomping away as we speak. It's doing a better job that I could.

Below is a before and after of a Japanese white pine. I removed the top some time ago, and decided just a year ago to try and make it look realistic by drilling hundreds of times into the cut, and down the trunk. I used 3 or 4 different size drill bits. The before photo is dated May 2021. The after photo is May 2022. It's progressing well.

Below is a Coral bark maple that I cut out about 10 years ago, also using a drill for part of the job. It has been rotting away ever since with no extra work done by me.

Thanks for the examples Phil, the deciduous coral bark and cotoneaster look great. I like your idea of leaving it to rot naturally.
Cheers
Kirky

I think the carving demo was today Kirky?
Anything you can pass on here?

Hi Neal, hubby having some health issues so unfortunately I wasn’t able to make it. Back to the doc’s again today.
Will bring the trees along to a work shop when I can and see how that goes.
Cheers
Kirky