AusBonsai

I've got a Japanese Black Pine that I have been developing to eventually become an informal upright shohin (or something close to that size). Now that I have grown more branches and the designing has started to take place, the low first branch has become a point of contention for me.

I know that following traditional design principles would see me remove that lowest branch in favour for the one above to become the new first branch. My initial instinct has been to go down that path which would certainly achieve a good result. I've also been contemplating keeping it and going down the path of a less conventional tree having that branch cascade down past the rim of the pot as I have seen on larger pines in Japan. I'm leaning towards maybe even to go that way it might just be coming out of the trunk a bit too low.

Interested to hear anyone's opinion what you would do if it were your tree.

Cheers, Patrick

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The pine in question



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When i bought it November 2021

The tree looks good.

Keep the first branch to fatten the base - but then get rid of it.

It’s got nice curves. I think this going the way of the classical stereotype informal upright pine.

I agree with Daluke - keep the branch for now and reassess in a few more years time. It's been developing well

I would also keep the low branch and at least let it continue to thicken the base below as it develops and thus increase taper. The only reason I might consider removing is if it is coming directly out towards the front, and so the bigger it gets the bigger the scar when you remove it (assuming you go down the traditional moyogi route). I don’t think it’s that big though just yet.
The part I would watch is higher up. Looks like 3 branches extending out of the trunk from one whorl… might be reading the photo wrong though. Anything more than the trunk and a single branch on an area that thin will cause inverse taper quite quickly, and will make the work of your super low sacrifice much less impactful. Just my . The tree is yours and you can see better in 3D than what I deduce from a pic.

Ryceman3 wrote: ↑June 10th, 2023, 3:59 pm I would also keep the low branch and at least let it continue to thicken the base below as it develops and thus increase taper. The only reason I might consider removing is if it is coming directly out towards the front, and so the bigger it gets the bigger the scar when you remove it (assuming you go down the traditional moyogi route). I don’t think it’s that big though just yet.
The part I would watch is higher up. Looks like 3 branches extending out of the trunk from one whorl… might be reading the photo wrong though. Anything more than the trunk and a single branch on an area that thin will cause inverse taper quite quickly, and will make the work of your super low sacrifice much less impactful. Just my . The tree is yours and you can see better in 3D than what I deduce from a pic.

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That's the main thing I am concerned about with leaving the bottom branch for too long if I decide I don't want it later, as it's not directly coming out of the front but at an angle towards the front so the scar would definitely be visible. I had a look the branches at the top aren't coming from the same spot but they are quite close to each other. Do you think that will be an issue? I've attached some more pics.

Get an old cloth and drop it over the branch and let us see?

Daluke wrote: ↑June 10th, 2023, 4:51 pm Get an old cloth and drop it over the branch and let us see?

That’s a digital edit I did. Obviously looks a bit awkward I will need to develop that branch longer and extending lower.

My photoshop isn’t as good as your

Patmet wrote: ↑June 10th, 2023, 4:25 pm
That's the main thing I am concerned about with leaving the bottom branch for too long if I decide I don't want it later, as it's not directly coming out of the front but at an angle towards the front so the scar would definitely be visible. I had a look the branches at the top aren't coming from the same spot but they are quite close to each other. Do you think that will be an issue? I've attached some more pics.

Looking at the girth of the low branch compared to your hand I wouldn’t be too concerned about the size of the scar for another growing season or so. It will scar but is definitely able to be healed in a year or three, and the bark will also help to disguise as it develops.
My point with the top branches is when they come from the same/similar junction and increase the trunk each by by a few millimetres as they develop, if that trunk is quite slim then that is a lot of “expansion” with lots of potential to create an inverse taper issue in my experience. I have to let you decide whether that branching is too close and would mean those developing branches will create swelling in the same spot. Too hard to really tell from an image.
Good luck with it, don’t stress too much though… still young with plenty of development ahead.
Looking at your last image, I might look to aim for something like this… first thoughts… yellow is sacrifice and cut in a year or two depending…

Just my two cents, I would let the bottom branch grow and embrace the eventual scar that it leaves. Being that low down, it's a good opportunity to have a deadwood feature or a hollow.

Nice tree Patmet.
Amazing what can be achieved in 2 years with JBP.
For my I think if it were mine I’d leave the bottom branch to thicken the base for another year but I’d delete it after that.
I think that photo shopped image without it is very nice.

SuperBonSaiyan wrote: ↑June 10th, 2023, 7:14 pm Just my two cents, I would let the bottom branch grow and embrace the eventual scar that it leaves. Being that low down, it's a good opportunity to have a deadwood feature or a hollow.

A thick, stubby Jin could be nice and look natural.
And if you don’t like it cut it off.

Thanks for the feedback and thoughts everyone. Some really good points to think about, and also ideas I hadn’t considered. I’ll be sure to update with this one as it develops.

Cheers, Patrick

Another option to consider
One reason id consider this is the base has beautiful curves to it and then the next few sections appear to be straight, albeit at different angles. The first action after the curve that moves to the left seems a bit jarring to me (and would be very difficult to get some curve into), where as the branch you have left after removing the lowest seems to sympathise and enhance the curve in the base. This is obviously only based on what can be seen in a 2d image.

From there it would only be about 3 years of development to achieve a nice little dense shohin

Personally I prefer the previous options.
Could that drastic cut endanger the left side of the lower trunk with reduced foliage for the sap flow?