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Questions about pines
Posted: July 9th, 2023, 6:09 am
by Georgelouk
Hello, sorry if this sounds bizzare but bear with me for a while and possibly help me. My name is George and I am from the small country of Greece my favourite genus of plants is pines and I always admired japanese pine bonsai and wanted to grow it but everyone in my club in Athens says that it's imposibble because of the long, dry and hot summers and everyone who has tried has killed the tree if not imidiatelly then after a few years usually the heat and lack of cold winters are blamed. The issue is that I see you guys growing japanese black and white pines just fine in Australia and knowing that we have very similar climates I wanted to ask you assuming I was in Sydney(very similar maximum and minimum tempertures with Athens) can I grow Japanese black or white pines and if yes what should I watch out for and is there a specific thing I can do to protect it from the high heat? I have seen that central Europeans and Americans say to place japanese pines in full sun but they have no idea what full sun means in climates like mine so I come to you who I assume you have more experience. Thank you in advance.
Re: Questions about pines
Posted: July 9th, 2023, 5:16 pm
by Trimmy
I'm a newbie to growing pines, but you're right about full sun being too much in a hot climate. Many plants will fry in pots. Some, like Japanese maples can even fry in the ground. Avoiding afternoon sun in summer is necessary for most species from Japan. When it gets really hot it can be best to only allow morning sun. Then there's the watering. Small pots can dry out very fast. Watering twice per day can be necessary during a heat wave.
Re: Questions about pines
Posted: July 9th, 2023, 6:14 pm
by Trimmy
Also you may want to consider pines that are native to your area. I believe some people have tried using Italian Stone Pine and Aleppo Pine which are happy with hot dry weather.
https://www.allthingsbonsai.co.uk/alepp ... tree-care/
Re: Questions about pines
Posted: July 9th, 2023, 6:24 pm
by Georgelouk
I'm already growing pinus halepensis and pinea, there are a lot of problems with both species and they will never look good, they are good for practice only. The thing is I don't want to grow just native species, if I did I wouldn't be making this post.
Re: Questions about pines
Posted: July 9th, 2023, 6:38 pm
by SuperBonSaiyan
I think black pines would grow fine in your climate.
In Melbourne we have what's described as Mediterranean climate and black pines grow very well here.
Just remember to keep them on the dryer side and use an open, free draining mix.
If you're unsure about watering, use a water meter.
Monitor the tree throughout the growing season for pests and disease, fertilize well and they should put on a lot of growth.
If you find the summers too hot, you can put up shade cloth for them as well.
Re: Questions about pines
Posted: July 9th, 2023, 7:03 pm
by Georgelouk
Thank you very much, have you succesfully ever grown white pines? If so what's the care in such a hot climate?
Re: Questions about pines
Posted: July 9th, 2023, 7:54 pm
by Ryceman3
Japanese Black Pine is a coastal plant and is your best bet. If you are saying your climate is the same as Sydney then you should be fine to grow them. Many examples of good JBP are coming from Sydney, and even further north, or south. It is capable of handling warmer winter temperatures… Sydney does not get freezing conditions (for any length of time, if at all) during colder months.
On the other hand Japanese white pine is a high altitude plant. While it can tolerate dry conditions, it does seem to require much colder/freezing temperatures to bring on “dormancy” over winter, without which their long term future appears to suffer. The anecdotal evidence is that they slowly lose vigour and eventually succumb without a cold winter. A lot of JWP is grafted onto other base stock so how/if that affects this I don’t really know. My guess is trees on their own roots would need cold winters as outlined above though.
Japanese Red Pine is native to foothills in Japan and therefore sits somewhere between the two.
I would caution against water/moisture meters in bonsai pots … they aren’t designed for that purpose (best used in the ground), but that’s by the by.
Re: Questions about pines
Posted: July 9th, 2023, 10:22 pm
by shibui
JBP grow very well at my place. Years ago I tried white pine but it slowly died so I assumed the talk about them not growing in warm areas was correct. About 10 years ago I collected some JWP seed and decided to try again. 3 germinated and I still have all 3 alive and well. I have used those for scions to graft onto JBP and also for cuttings. Success with cuttings is low but they can strike. Not sure how warm is too warm for white pine but just shows you should not believe everything 'they' tell you.
Definitely try black pines in Greece I'm confident it will grow OK. Not sure about white pines.
Re: Questions about pines
Posted: July 10th, 2023, 6:15 am
by SuperBonSaiyan
Ryceman3 wrote: ↑July 9th, 2023, 7:54 pm
I would caution against water/moisture meters in bonsai pots … they aren’t designed for that purpose (best used in the ground), but that’s by the by.
May I ask why? I've been using moisture meters for the last year and they've stopped me from overwatering, but if there's a negative effect I'd like to know so I can try to avoid it.
Re: Questions about pines
Posted: July 10th, 2023, 7:42 am
by Ryceman3
SuperBonSaiyan wrote: ↑July 10th, 2023, 6:15 am
Ryceman3 wrote: ↑July 9th, 2023, 7:54 pm
I would caution against water/moisture meters in bonsai pots … they aren’t designed for that purpose (best used in the ground), but that’s by the by.
May I ask why? I've been using moisture meters for the last year and they've stopped me from overwatering, but if there's a negative effect I'd like to know so I can try to avoid it.
Moisture meters are made for gardens/“regular” soil. They rely on measurement of moisture suspended between soil particles. Because bonsai mix is open and uses large particles comparatively there are therefore larger spaces between soil particles. The meters will always lean towards "Water me" and that can lead to constant overwatering.
I’m not saying you can’t use them… I would caution against it as they were not created to accurately measure moisture in a pot environment. I would actually look at the mix/tree, or use the chopstick method if required than rely on a meter.
Maybe the technology in creating meters is changing though?
Do whatever works for you.
Re: Questions about pines
Posted: July 10th, 2023, 11:17 am
by rodm
Hi all
The best water meter and we all have them, you fingers. You can poke, scratch and dig/look whether the soil is damp or dry.
The best technology of all
Cheers Rodm
Re: Questions about pines
Posted: July 10th, 2023, 2:01 pm
by treeman
Ryceman3 wrote: ↑July 10th, 2023, 7:42 am
. I would actually look at the mix/tree, or use the chopstick method if required than rely on a meter.
Correct and further, moisture meter probes have been proven to be completely useless, with some measuring dry and other wet in the same mix.
Re: Questions about pines
Posted: July 10th, 2023, 6:23 pm
by Georgelouk
Ryceman3 wrote: ↑July 9th, 2023, 7:54 pm
Japanese Black Pine is a coastal plant and is your best bet. If you are saying your climate is the same as Sydney then you should be fine to grow them. Many examples of good JBP are coming from Sydney, and even further north, or south. It is capable of handling warmer winter temperatures… Sydney does not get freezing conditions (for any length of time, if at all) during colder months.
On the other hand Japanese white pine is a high altitude plant. While it can tolerate dry conditions, it does seem to require much colder/freezing temperatures to bring on “dormancy” over winter, without which their long term future appears to suffer. The anecdotal evidence is that they slowly lose vigour and eventually succumb without a cold winter. A lot of JWP is grafted onto other base stock so how/if that affects this I don’t really know. My guess is trees on their own roots would need cold winters as outlined above though.
Japanese Red Pine is native to foothills in Japan and therefore sits somewhere between the two.
I would caution against water/moisture meters in bonsai pots … they aren’t designed for that purpose (best used in the ground), but that’s by the by.
Thanks, I will try to get my hands on some imported material, how much shding would you suggest during the summer months? Do you or anyone you know that lives in a hotter part of the country have any success growing grafted white pine?
shibui wrote: ↑July 9th, 2023, 10:22 pm
JBP grow very well at my place. Years ago I tried white pine but it slowly died so I assumed the talk about them not growing in warm areas was correct. About 10 years ago I collected some JWP seed and decided to try again. 3 germinated and I still have all 3 alive and well. I have used those for scions to graft onto JBP and also for cuttings. Success with cuttings is low but they can strike. Not sure how warm is too warm for white pine but just shows you should not believe everything 'they' tell you.
Definitely try black pines in Greece I'm confident it will grow OK. Not sure about white pines.
What is the maximum temp in your area? Do you shade them in the hottest months? What is the minimum temp?
Re: Questions about pines
Posted: July 11th, 2023, 1:43 pm
by Ryceman3
Georgelouk wrote: ↑July 10th, 2023, 6:23 pm
Thanks, I will try to get my hands on some imported material, how much shding would you suggest during the summer months? Do you or anyone you know that lives in a hotter part of the country have any success growing grafted white pine?
I can only go on what I know and I give my pine trees zero shading during summer. I am in Melbourne which would probably be considered cooler generally than Sydney, but we have days in excess of 40deg at least a couple of times during the hotter months and plenty in the mid 30's or so. My trees live on a deck above my tin roof with no shade, full sun and complete exposure to wind. JBP seem to thrive in these conditions provided appropriate watering etc.
No idea about white pine, the grafted stuff I see available isn't super inspiring (maybe I look in the wrong places) and finding JWP here on their own roots isn't easy so I am yet to dive down that rabbit hole, although maybe one day if I find the right tree. I'm not averse to trying stuff out for myself. You often hear a lot of things about what can and can't be done, but there are so many factors/variables that will affect a result that unless you try for yourself it can be very hard to be sure what is true and what might just be a preconception. Good luck with it...
Re: Questions about pines
Posted: July 11th, 2023, 8:43 pm
by shibui
What is the maximum temp in your area? Do you shade them in the hottest months? What is the minimum temp?
Maximum hot days in summer gets to around 43C and we can have daytime temps over 40C for 5 days in a row but that's unusual. Most summers we probably see daytime max over 40 on 10-15 days.
Winter minimum overnight can go below 0C. I can remember one winter we got down to -7C but more usually -2C or -3C and once or twice each winter -4C or -5C
This site has a chart of record min and max as well as average temps for my area which might help compare to your place -
https://www.eldersweather.com.au/climat ... ckandandah
I put up light shade cloth in summer for the maples and other sensitive species but pines, junipers and most of the native trees stay in full sun through summer.