AusBonsai

Last night I was asked a question, is root over or on rock ( Ishizuki ) considered ever considered to be shohin?.

I had to answer NO not because I agree, but that is the excepted norm. It got me wondering, because I have one over rock, and two on rock where the tree's themselves certainly fit into Shohin criteria.
As I have only been doing Shohin for 10 years. I was wondering my self. The two on rock I can understand as the rock they are on is way over the 25 mm limit!!.

The one on rock however fit into the criteria easily including the rock. So without out further ado I again pose the question I was asked does this tree fit.

It is 170mm from the pot rim the trunk at the top of the rock is 10mm. As you can see it is not bigger than the coke can.

Hi Pup
This is only a guess but thinking that shohin are usually viewed in a group from a little distance. I guess the height restriction is used to fit in with the overall group image. So as long as you used the overall height of rock and tree so that it fits with the image then it would go into the normal size classification.

I do not claim to have a grasp of the Japanese terminology but my present understanding is that shohin is a term we use to categorise the size of a bonsai.
Therefore this Question can go a lot further:
Can we have,
Informal upright shohin,
Windswept shohin,
Twin trunk shohin,
Clump style shohin?
Then it can get a little tricky with
Cascade shohin???
and Bunjin Shohin???

For me it does not matter what they are called, I will enjoy them anyway.

Gerard

hey pup

this question i asked wasnt necessarliy is it within the shohin size category, i used that as an example, all is good though. i am curious as i have just started a couple ROR trees and the elm i have put on i beleive would be considered a mame tree by itself. but on the rock it would be shohin size. but this could be said as an example of all sizes. so in retrospect of my question to you, is the height of the overall composition considered the classification height eg. shohin. or is it just the tree that sits on the rock from the base of the trunk eg. mame. ?

it is something that had me puzzled too as i am not quite sure, i would presume to say it is the height of the overall composition but cannot be 100% hence that is why i asked about it (bloody jamie asking more questions, grumble, grumble, grumble )

it would be nice to find out anyways and appreciate the time you have thought about it. i wonder if anyone has some japanese connections that might be able to clear up the question i have asked?

thanks pup and co. muchly appreciatd

Jamie wrote:hey pup

this question i asked wasnt necessarliy is it within the shohin size category, i used that as an example, all is good though. i am curious as i have just started a couple ROR trees and the elm i have put on i beleive would be considered a mame tree by itself. but on the rock it would be shohin size. but this could be said as an example of all sizes. so in retrospect of my question to you, is the height of the overall composition considered the classification height eg. shohin. or is it just the tree that sits on the rock from the base of the trunk eg. mame. ?

it is something that had me puzzled too as i am not quite sure, i would presume to say it is the height of the overall composition but cannot be 100% hence that is why i asked about it (bloody jamie asking more questions, grumble, grumble, grumble )

it would be nice to find out anyways and appreciate the time you have thought about it. i wonder if anyone has some japanese connections that might be able to clear up the question i have asked?

thanks pup and co. muchly appreciatd

Jamie I am glad you asked because it is something I would like answered my self as I have always accepted, that root over rock as a no no in Shohin or Mame display.

The term for them in Japanese is Ishizuki, which includes root over rock and root on rock. The difference being the root on rock is generally is when the tree sit on the rock and is displayed in a suiban tray and root over rock is when the roots go over the rock and down into the soil in the pot.
Cheers Pup

no worries pup

being an avid small tree man myself it will definately be interesting to find out, because if they are not considered shohin or mame, then what do they fit into? ?

thanks for the clarification on root over rock and root on rock. speaking of which is root on rock also considered Ishizuki if the tree is planted into a rock without a suiban?

cheers

jamie

According to Morten Albek, a European authority on the subject of Shohin Bonsai the basic rules are as follows. "The basic rules are demanding that the Shohin-bonsai may not be higher than 25cm (that's 10 inches) when measured from rim of the pot, to the top of the tree. But, at the same time it has to be said, that these measures and rules, has to be taken with a bit of laxness."

Basically, most experts believe that you must be able to hold the shohin-bonsai in one hand, and it must express the beauty of a large tree in miniature. The exact measure of the height of the tree is then less important."

I just extracted this from an internet site and it basically states what I have always believed to be true - that shohin is a size and not a style so as long as your bonsai falls within the varying height limit [I always thought it was 30cm but who's going to quibble about 5 cm here or there] then it is Shohin.

I'm not saying my understanding is right... just that is what I have thought.

thanks mel, very interesting, what are your thoughts on Ishizuki as shohin size? do you think it should be the size of the overall composition or the overall height of the tree from the base of trunk to the top of the foliage, not including the rock?

i have always thought to come into the classification of the sizes it is from the rim of the pot to the top of the tree. but it isnt clear with Ishizuki?

cheers

jamie

Good onya Pup; Its a trick quesion that the ancestor's have left open to us to torment our intellect. My understanding is that its either a shohin tree or a composition of a shohin tree / tree's. That is the only way i can logically look at it. Do the ancestors approve??? If so, knock on the wall 3 times at the strike of midnight.

I have never had a problem with the heights of Shito, Mame, or Shohin. What I am asking is why when it is root over rock ( Ishizuki ).
Regardless of size it is not accepted?.

As you can see my example fits into the size criteria easily, but is not accepted as Shohin for display purposes with other Shohin.

Shohin encompasses all the styles of Bonsai just smaller. Is the European standard different from the American or Japanese standard?.

I have posed this question on a few sites hoping to get a definitive answer. I will also ask our club Sensei.

Cheers Pup

Ok now i understand your specific Pup. Wow other than you who else around here, were we gonna get that answer from? Having said that, obviously this acceptance is for competition purposes.

anttal63 wrote:Ok now i understand your specific Pup. Wow other than you who else around here, were we gonna get that answer from? Having said that, obviously this acceptance is for competition purposes.

No Antonio, even in general display it is frowned on. That is why I would like to know, as I have been asked to do a talk on the subject. I would like to be able to say.
Why, as I have said where the rock is big, that I can understand, but not when all the other criteria are met.
Except for the rock, not having any formal training in Bonsai I thought those that have could answer.

Cheers, as you can see it is not a trick question it is one of those conundrums.

Pup the perplexed

JOW you got the contacts to ask this question??? just an email away?

definately a conundrum pup, its been bugging the hell out of me, i have been searching for info on it but havent come up with much yet

will keep hunting

Jamie wrote:definately a conundrum pup, its been bugging the hell out of me, i have been searching for info on it but havent come up with much yet

will keep hunting

There are a lot of experts telling what the sizes are. Are there not, but none can give a definitive answer to our question. I have Challenged our American cousins to see if they can come up with an answer. Because it was an American site I was on on when it was said.
When questioned further no answer so I left it at that. Should have persevered.

Looks like we will have to wait on the club Sensei's answer when I can ask.

Cheers Pup