AusBonsai

Can anyone explain the difference and where to get Peat moss. What are the advantages or disadvantages of each?
Thanks!

Shpagnum is cream coloured long and fluffy strands ( looks like aReal fluffy wool), and Peat is real fine particles and stringy like. Dark brown colour too

I get Both from the Big B... The Sphag in a bag and is already damp and Spongy
Peat is dry and in a brick form. Hard as and you need to cut a lump off and soak in water for ages as it is real hard to wet. This is why I do not liek peat in a Bonsai mix as if it dries out too much, it is very hard to rewet

Ken

Hi KC
Thanks for that but I think you may be making the same mistake that I was. Since I posted this question I think I have clarified that Peat Moss technically is supposed to be decomposed sphagnum moss. I believe the common ones we have here in the bricks you describe are coco peat. Brunnings have one specifically called Peat Moss but I am still unsure if that is true peat moss.
A soil recipe I want to follow stipulates Peat Moss and I was just checking to clarify I had the right stuff. I wonder what the advantages/disadvantages of peat moss (decomposed spag moss) are over live Spag Moss?

Hi Brett,
I remember reading that peat moss is a Nitrogen thief. Peat does nothing for a growing mix in regards to improving structure and has little organic value. The off the shelf bonsai mixes such as Debco and Brunnings contain peat, it's probably part of the reason they are so...hmm.........."off the shelf". Or it could be the sawdust in them.

If you are looking for a bonsai soil component, sphagnum is the way to go, retains moisture, it rewets easily and is beneficial to root systems. Chooped sphagnum combined with coarse sand or 3-5mm stone chips/decomposed granite could be a more readily available altermnative to diatomite, you would have water holding capacity and drainage (air filled porosity).

If you are using pine bark in your mix as well, the sphagnum moss assists in re-wetting the whole mix, which in your hot, dry summers, would be a definite bonus I'd think.

If you find a horticultural supplies wholesaler out your way, you should be able to get 100 litre bales of sphagnum for half of what you would pay by volume for the little bags at that big hardware joint in Orange. I ordered half a pallet from my supplier on Monday, to use in my spring airlayers.

Cheers
Mojo

P.S. I have heard and read good things about CocoPeat/Coir Peat, but have never needed to try it.

coco peat isn't that bad compare to sphagnum moss.... the only thing that coco peat turns me off is that it make the mix looks hairy.....

Yeah Brett you are correct
I just checked the label on the block and it is Coir-Peat

I use it in my seed raising and Cutting growing mixes. 50/50 that and sharp propagating sand as in the box it always stays Moist

Ken

Been a busy day yesterday but I finally have my real computer back up and running minus a video card and it seems to be better than ever
Thanks for the information Mojo. I have not been able to find anything about peat moss being a nitrogen thief but I have found alot about it being great for soils. Although the praise is identical to live sphagnum moss so maybe we are still talking about different things. I have not been able to find what sought of peat is in the bonsai soil you mention but I will have a look next time I have one in my hands.

I have used sphagnum moss mainly as a chopped surface dressing and found it was great. I was able to add more or less so that every tree needed watering at the same time before work in the morning in the dark without having to check the soil From what I gather the praise for moss peat (dead decomposing Sphagnum) is identical to live Sphagnum so just using live spag moss does seem a very viable option. But now I am curious to whether there is any difference at all ?
As with bark chips, sawdust or any organic material if it is not decomposed enough it will be a nitrogen thief. For those others that may not know yet lets explain that organic material needs nitrogen to start it's breaking down process. That is why wood chips ae not a great mulch as they draw nitrogen from the soil as they break down.
So maybe if the peat moss was not broken down enough it could be a nitrogen thief. The life cycle of this stuff is Sooooooo slow and the Peat moss is from the bottom of the live spag and takes a generation to produce if I remember my reading yesterday.
This brings us to the environmental issues which is the only bad thing I have read about using it so far. With it taking so long to grow and then decompose it is an exhaustible resource but that again is much the same as using Spag moss ?

In reading I found Dumper is very correct in saying that

coco peat isn't that bad compare to sphagnum moss

It is said on an environmental level coconut husks or what we are usual sold as peat and often confused with peat moss is a pretty good replacement.
Take this quote from my reading.

Research found that while compost and coir, in various blends with sandy or clay soil, performed nearly as well as peat moss under certain conditions, none worked as well as peat moss under all conditions

From this article I skimmed over this morning.
http://www.peatmoss.com/hortprog1.php
There is alot of information on this if you google peat moss!
So it seems in certain conditions coco peat will work fine instead of peat moss. I have come across a very good coco husk chips in the past being Orchid Mate. I have had it in my large hornbeam mix for two years now and it seemed to be working great but recently the mix seems to have broken down some. I am looking forward to repotting it this spring and get a better look at the soil.
Coincidentally it is the Hornbeam's that I am putting this mix together for.It is not very often I get to follow a master mix of soil components and since I will have all the ingredients for Walter Palls hornbeam mix including Peat moss which I seem to have found in Killarney Peat Moss at Bunnings. I will try that first and go from there before I think of the environment and stop using Spag moss in any form
Still not sure if there is any difference in using peat moss(dead decomposing spag moss) or live spag moss.
Oh Mojo I do have a local nursery (1 hour away) that buys Spag moss in bulk so I think I will hit them for a bulk order deal but I am not sure they will hand over their supplier to me. I will se what offer they give before I look further

Hi Brett, I am glad you raised the environmental issues with peat and spag, both are harvested from wetlands and are non renewable resources whereas coconut fibre is a byproduct from an already established industry and in completely renewable.
With regards to your comment on woodchip and nitrogen, I am a serial mulcher both here and in a number of other gardens that I work in. I have for years been using woodchip some aged some fresh and reckon the benefits far out weigh the negatives. If you are concerned about the nitrogen leaching a quick sprinkle of b&b before the mulch goes down will resolve the problem.
Craig

That's interesting to hear Craig. I think in the same mix that I used the coco chips I also tried gum tree wood chips. They where a great small size but still fresh so there would have been concern about them being a nitrogen thief. Back then(even brasher than now ) I figured I would just fertilise more to over come this. I liked the idea they would take a long time to break down.
I need to take better notes with all the mucking around that I do but I believe it worked pretty good and now I think I did not even fertilise that much. Or the fertiliser I was using was much weaker than I realised! I think I did get a little yellowing of my Large hornbeam which may have been Iron? Looked like Iron and makes sense since the fert I was using lacked Iron!
I will remember the B+B tip when organising the garden this Winter

Hi Brett,
CocoPeat/Coir peat is way different from peat moss, it is re-wettable and does not form a crust on the soil surface. Keep in mind that Walter's climate is almost a polar opposite to yours, he has staff looking after his trees and greenhouses available to use as a sheltered growing environment if thee need arises. As you have said a few times, Carpinus in your location is a challenging proposition, hell, when I was living in Melbourne they were tricky buggers . There's no harm in giving Walter's mix a try with some sacrificial trees for a season or two before you use it on more valuable trees.

What I like to do if I am doing a trial of soil substrates is to use an indicator species to show you when you need to re-water and compare it's performance in the test mix to your regular mix. I have been using Luma for this purpose because they are cheap and if you know what you are doing you can have them wilt for half a day and then wet them and they usually recover in a few hrs without ill affects. If you cant find Luma, Cotoneaster works ok too. I don't use deciduous trees to indicate because they are likely to suffer leaf burn or drop when they are stressed.

Cheers
Mojo

Hi Mojo.
I can understand your consideration on trying new mixes and Walters differing climate which I understand is much cooler than ours. Being out here by myself I have always been pretty game to try different things as I had little choice with no one else to follow.
Lets state the mix I consider from Walter though.

20% coarse sand
20% akadama
10% peat moss
50% humus, especially bark humus.

Nothing that out of the ordinary, Considering we are hotter than Walter and this would be a more water retentive mix than I would normally use so I don't think it will be that scary a change from anything I am using at the moment.
I like the idea of coarse sand I have been heading towards sand instead of larger grit lately. Also as Humus is another component that I often have trouble understanding what it actually is I am happy this one states bark humus as I am confident a good quality common potting mix will fill this requirement. So all in all it is not that out of the ordinary but it is nice to follow a recipe for once instead of trying to make it up myself

FWIW ... This olive has been sitting in a kitty litter tray of that compressed peat block stuff you get from B#nnings and add water to for the past 18 months, no fertilizer, no nothing ... 'cept water, looks a bit anemic but otherwise its doing OK, then again olives aren't normal, any other plant probably wouldn't have been doing quite as well.

From having used peat moss in aquariums, I know it will significantly lower the ph of the water. I imagine it would do the same for soil. Sphagnum moss will not do the same, I don't know about the coco peat.

Peat moss or is made from coco peat, which is obtained from coconut husk. It is a naturally occurring material and does not to plants and soil. Instead it increases with soil fertility and plant growth.

roborthudson wrote:Peat moss or is made from coco peat, which is obtained from coconut husk. It is a naturally occurring material and does not to plants and soil. Instead it increases with soil fertility and plant growth.

Sorry mate, but Peat moss isn't made from coco peat, Coco peat is, as has been said before, the processed results of Coconut fibre (the stuff that surround the coconut seed). Peat is the product mined from peat boggs in a few different places around the world. I think Tassie is the only place it is found in Australia, but will stand correcting on that. I haven't seem real peat available for some time, but then I haven't looked for it either - preferring nowdays to use the coconut alternative. I believe it is getting harder and harder to mine peat, due to the enviromental reasons. Apparently the stuff has to lay in the bogs for a very, very long (like hundreds of years) before it is usable. Cocopeat is renewed yearly.

The one biggie I remember about Peat, Bretts, is that is becomes very hard to wet, actually repelling water, after it has dried out. Something that is not a problem with cocopeat. I seem to remember years (and years) ago you had to actually leave a plant in a bucket of water for the day to get the peat component of the mix wet after it had dried. Of course that is something that wouldn't be an issue in your garden mate

I agree with you concerning the addition of a little extra fert to cover the Nitrogen drawdown when using cocopeat. I usually sprinkle a little Urea on the surface of the pot every now and again. Having said that, it depends on which article you read as to the actual drawdown experienced. I have read the small amount of fert in the cocopeat is enough to counter it, while others say Nitrogen shortfall will be experienced from use of the product. Even in those pots I have not added Urea to I haven't really noticed any true Nitrogen deficiency, but better safe that sorry.