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Using non-natives in native Compositions
Posted: May 25th, 2010, 3:03 pm
by Bretts
It is widely excepted that you use such things as Buxus to create a Live oak style and I am sure there are other examples of this in Bonsai. I have wondered why we have not exploited this idea with the styles of our native trees. It seems I am not the only one considering this as Gargar recently showed a Fig that was being formed into a gum tree style.
There is also a notion that normal design principles are some how different when creating an Aussie native composition.
I think there are many different styles of bonsai and our Aussie natives are nothing more that a selection of various attitudes in trunk proportions and branch movement that are already in front of us. We just need to put them together in a certain way just like we do for any differing tree species.
We have much to learn in Australia just about our natives such as horticultural techniques as well as finding a way to replicate the style of the Aussie natives. I am not suggesting we give up on natives in any way. Far from it. I think of this as brainstorming on natives. So why not experiment with non-natives in a native style?
The question is what species of tree could we create a native composition out of?
Re: Using non-natives in native Compositions
Posted: May 25th, 2010, 3:14 pm
by craigw60
This is a very interesting point Brett. One of the Japanese masters that came out here for workshops (can't remember which one ) went home and made an australian tree out of a maple. It was tall and slender with long upwards growing branches and tufts of foliage on the end of each one, obviously he was replicating a gum tree.
I really don't know why we put our native trees in a separate category. I think we all should grow them, lots of them but, they should in my opinion be viewed as another great source of bonsai material. I like to try and grow my natives in conventional Japanese styles some times it works other times not. Really for me the only difference between native and exotic trees is the repotting season.
Craig
Re: Using non-natives in native Compositions
Posted: May 25th, 2010, 3:16 pm
by Bretts
Hi Criag I posted some maple bonsai that I thought reminded me of gum trees. I am seeing if the mods will split that discussion over to here so we don't have to repost
See here for now
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4780&p=55481#p55481
I would love to see the maple you are speaking of that was exactly the thought I was thinking of. I also agree visa versa why be fixated on making our natives look a certain way but also enjoy them in any form we like?
Re: Using non-natives in native Compositions
Posted: May 25th, 2010, 6:18 pm
by Bretts
Bloody Mods never there when you need them
by gargar ยป Yesterday, 13:01
Hi Bretts.
Attached is a redgum on geelong rd, 1st werribee exit. This is in my top 10 trees. I love it but photo doesnt quite capture its beautiul design, balance or the feeling this tree imparts. However i gave up on the thought of bonsaiing it long ago when i realised a redgum wouldnt do this for me. That and the powerful twisting branches that hover just above the ground and the writhing trunkline are the impressive features to me. In a bonsai pot the branches would make the trunkline hard to see and the design cluttered. i think i would be better off trying to capture the feeling and style of this tree which is what i hope to do with this little port jacskson fig.(when the weather is warmer).
it wont be the same tree or species even. I hope it remind me of the gum, and display its best features. It will have a lower tree to trunk ratio to the gum and it would need to, to feel the same. When you see the gum in the flesh, the thickness in the trunk, it's power and weight are impressive. To capture that on a smaller tree it would need to exaggerated slightly-to have the same impact.
this post is just to give visual to my earlier one
its good everbody throwing in their 2 cents or 2 bob even. add it all up and bonsai community is richer for it!!
ficusraf.JPG
07170095.jpg
Re: Using non-natives in native Compositions
Posted: May 25th, 2010, 6:21 pm
by Bretts
dayne wrote:well said gargar thats it to copy a redgum in the wild you dont allways need a redgum look at powerfull junipers they dont grow like that in the wild we are just using trees as a medium to create an image in our minds of an old majestic tree i think we can all get caught up in species a bit why cant we do a fig like a gum if it suits more than a gum like a gum this is an art and theirs hundreds of paints tiles textures materials that artists use to create landscapes why cant we do the same some will work great some wont its up to us to find that out
Re: Using non-natives in native Compositions
Posted: May 25th, 2010, 6:30 pm
by Bretts
That is a great pictureof the gum Gargar. I have no luck finding pics of full mature gums like this on google. I have had to rely on the couple that I have taken.
As best I can gather as the base is obscured I get about 1:8 for your gum.
The gum is somewhat similar to some gums posted by a member who loves his gums Flybri. I had been meaning to check the ratio of his trees so I went and stole them from his thread for us here.
Average is about 1:8 so I think 1:8 is a fair estimate for yours as well
Mill_Park_RR_01(Resized).jpg
Mill_Park_RR_02(Resized).jpg
Mill_Park_RR_03(Resized).jpg
Mill_Park_RR_04(Resized).jpg
Mill_Park_RR_05(Resized).jpg
The fig you are representing it with is about 1:5 and I would say you have very fair representation of the gum. But maybe not what I envisage for a gum tree.
The gum tree is an amazing style of tree it seems to have every aspect of trees/bonsai thrown into one mix kinda like our Platypus
Call me crazy but I see alot of maple in their crossed with penjing and the deadwood and hollows of deciduous and conifer combined.
It is hard to find pictures of the style of maple I am thinking of but here is a penjing trident maple to start with.
bonsai2.jpg
Re: Using non-natives in native Compositions
Posted: May 25th, 2010, 6:35 pm
by Bretts
Here is the same tree in all it's glory
Trident_Maple_bonsai_52,_October_10,_2008.jpg
I get about 1:6 on this one.
Here is another in this maple style that reminds me of our Gums. I think with a little tweaking of the branch structure and a more penjing influence the basic style reminds me of gum.
bonsai_federahorn.jpg
I get about 1:7 for this
It is hard to imagine this one as gum without the leaves but here is a maple at about 1:8 Why can't we represent Gum trees at the natural hight ratio of 1:8
maple%20alba%20bonsai.jpg
These gum of yours Gargar and Fly's I think of as a tall elegant Gum fitting the 1:6 and over and that is in line with normal consideration in bonsai. I have shown a gum at about 1:5 in early posts and I am sure there are stouter ones so I just don't get why there is a notion that the design principles we use on other bonsai don't suit gums. Sure there is a difference in style of trunk and branch movement but not in ratio! The gum is often a tall and elegant tree and the flexibility of the upto 1:12 should be used in our natives just as any other species as bonsai.
Here is one more Walters maple. I think I shocked Pup the other day suggesting that I saw a gum tree here but I often see multi trunked gums in my travels that remind me of this light airy tree.
japanesemaple-walterpall.jpg
Another amazing tree at 1:6
Re: Using non-natives in native Compositions
Posted: May 25th, 2010, 6:36 pm
by Bretts
gargar wrote:Hey Brett. I can see what you are saying about the maple. Thats really cool. food for thought in that. Also like pics especially the 1:9. would look good captured as a bonsai snapshot of wild and free old eucy. But which species to use? i think this may get off topic so when i get a mo' i'll try to get another chat goin with you on australian tree shapes in STYLING or NATIVES
Re: Using non-natives in native Compositions
Posted: May 25th, 2010, 7:20 pm
by Psymo
Can i just say, i love this back drop
ficusraf.JPG
This is ingenuity, who needs photoshop?
Re: Using non-natives in native Compositions
Posted: May 25th, 2010, 8:13 pm
by gargar
the board is a piece of primed masonite wtih acrylic kids paint ultramarine to white worked wet from dark to light with house paint brush. if you get a bit loose with brushstrokes you create a more surreal cloudy sky. i really want to make a big one so you cant see the edges but this small one works ok with my rocks. (Have some in my gallery). give it a try' you can always paint over it and go again
Re: Using non-natives in native Compositions
Posted: May 25th, 2010, 8:18 pm
by Bretts
So which species do we Use?
How about Firethorn
When discussing this yesterday I thought about a firethorn that I was wondering what to do with and it dawned on me it might make a nice gum. The bark is kinda similar to some gums and so is the leaf. Of course the berries would not suit but could the flowers be a decent representation of gum flowers if the tree was not covered in them?
firethorn 001.jpg
Re: Using non-natives in native Compositions
Posted: May 25th, 2010, 8:37 pm
by gargar
go for it! as far as i know there isnt a distinct firethorn style and its good material. you wanna do something with it.so in my book you can do as you please with it. no species/style restriction on this
Re: Using non-natives in native Compositions
Posted: May 25th, 2010, 9:29 pm
by Will_IslandBonsai
I have been musing on this possibility for a while now, although with a slight variation. Because I use only native plants, I have been toying with the idea of using other plants to replicate Eucalypts,(because they are so contrary as bonsai) but in my case I was thinking of using Teatrees, Melaleucas, callistemon or my small leaved banksia to do the job!
I think when possible though it is preferable to use a species to represent itself. Otherwise you could end up with a great meaningless jumble of cover versions, and you lose some of the purity of the art. I for one would not be all that excited by an exhibition, full of say Japanese maples that look like something other than maples! Clever perhaps, but lacking a certain sincerity? Gimmicky?
I think where possible we should be true to the plant if it can be reasonably done.
Re: Using non-natives in native Compositions
Posted: May 25th, 2010, 11:52 pm
by Bretts
I agree Will although it would be very funny to see Australian style Maple sweeping the Globe.
Re: Using non-natives in native Compositions
Posted: May 26th, 2010, 8:43 am
by gargar
In agreeance with will. if i cant work succesfully with gums it would be nice to use natives to create that image.some species we never try to grow to natural shape( juniper prsotrata, wisteria, firethorn, many shrubs and creepers we work with all with good features for bonsai). ithink of these as 'fantasy trees' where we get to use your imagination a bit more. if a gum has made an impression on you cos it has a nice shape then i say its ok to replicate it with another species. it should still be an impressive bonsai. and would be ok to say " This firethorn is inspired by a tree i saw driving in outback n .s.w" or whatever. i commend brett for thinking outside the boundry on this.
Bonsai in australia is interesting cos we are working with our natives which are so diverse from many other countries especially nth hemisphere . we are also working with traditional bonsai material and whatever garden yamadori we have here from last 200 years. its like a botanical multicultural society. or a garden with silky oaks, wattles, wisteria and a maple which is o.k. for me. I also think australia is on an exciting bonsai journey . would love to see whats going on in 100 yrs. especailly with some of the thinking and discussion starting to emerge.