AusBonsai

I currently have a bunch of trees growing in the field. In fact, I really only have about 3 or 4 in bonsai pots (god that's depressing) and the rest are either seedlings shaped with wire early on destined for field growing, or other trees in various early stages which are also destined for the field. So I've been a little confused lately as to what the best and quickest technique is for fattening the trunk. (I realise the best might not be the quickest BTW. So let's just say the quickest way to the best results)

On Bonsai4me on the article on field growing he has argued that the tree must be left to grow until the base is the desired thickness and only then can you begin to cut back to introduce taper:

Very often I have seen enthusiasts fail to understand that when developing a trunk for bonsai in the ground, the tree must first be grown freely until the base is the desired thickness intended for the bonsai that it will one day become. The example above perfectly illustrates that after trunk-chopping, the trunk base will barely thicken (if at all) until the new sections above it have reached the same diameter. By which point the taper (and the purpose of trunk chopping) has been lost.

Elsewhere (Peter Adams' book) I've read that cutting back should be done continuously to maintain taper and limit the amount of large scars in future.

So what do those with more experience than me here think is the best plan of attack?

hi mate, field growing is the "quickest" way to get size on a tree, growing for size and growing in taper are two different things, you have to sacrifice one for the other, you cut back for taper, you will slow thickening, although you dont cut for taper you will get a tree that could be too solid. it is best to try and grow out to where you want to get the tree in size wise but keep your eye one where you are to cut and grow. if you grow a branch/trunk you intend to use as the next section but dont cut back to it soon enough it will get to thick and be of no use.

there are a few tricks to it that i am still trying to learn myself! in lindsays revent episode it shows a maple getting grown in the field, it gives you a good idea of what is needed

jamie

having only a few in bonsai pots and the rest in the ground, you must be a smart bloke , it is the way to do if you want quick results. let it grow free, cut back agressively. grow wild again once again cut back agressively, continue untill you have the desired trunk, spade around roots every yr or two, make sure the roots are well aranged before planting in the ground, this is important.

I would say, first decide where you are heading, remove large branches which arent part of the final plan to avoid later scars and major setbacks. Then field plant and let it grow away and thicken. Assess it from time to time, prune only reluctantly and with good reason. And then dont pull it up until the trunk is where you want it to be, it will hardly improve at all once in a bonsai pot.
My understanding, you will get other opinions, not gonna argue with them.

what we need to know is what you plan on ground growing!! deciduous trees and conifers need different approaches! confers need to have a plan put in pace for them and low sacrifices to get big trunks, back budding can be an issue so cutting back growth can not only impede but become a big issue if not dealt with correctly, i suggest you look up some of the great articles on the web about this, http://www.evergreengardenworks.com havee some great articles on both deciduous and confier.


you are going to get scars from field growing no matter what! this can add interest with scars and hollows, but it can also cause unsightly ness if not watched and dealt with appropriately! scars on deciduous trees can heall quite well so big scars arent to much of an issue in my eyes and will be needed when cutting back for taper, which will need to be done unless wanting a taller more elegant tree! you should lift the tree every 1 - 3 years and spade around it in that time to keep the root system compact and incheck!

letting the tree grow wild for a season then pruning back with no plan will only result in slowing the girth growing down. growing sacrifice branchs from low on the trunk is a good idea as this will pump energy into the base. cutting back for taper slows girth growing some but it will put more energy into the new leader until it gets to a size similar to where it was chopped, cutting back at the right times is definately needed to and knowing how too, just cutting back without know why you are cutting it doesnt help. http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATfieldgrowing.htm also shows with pics and easy to follow instructions on how to do this!

Jamie, do you think you could use your moderator skills to stop double posting everything?

Greth wrote:Jamie, do you think you could use your moderator skills to stop double posting everything?

computer/internet glitch. bad weather on wireless. will fix up

Thanks, much more readable now.

I suspect what Jamie is trying to say is that with plants which readily backbud, you can afford to get rid of low unwanted branches, thus avoiding scars. With stuff that doesnt, like conifers, low branches are precious, you are unlikely to get a replacement if you chop one. So it definitely does matter what you are growing.

Jamie wrote:hi mate, field growing is the "quickest" way to get size on a tree, growing for size and growing in taper are two different things, you have to sacrifice one for the other, you cut back for taper, you will slow thickening, although you dont cut for taper you will get a tree that could be too solid.

jamie

I disagree Somewhat Jamie
I have several trees in the ground again now and Several are maples

Yes when you cut the tree will slow down somewhat, but mostly when you lift them to do the root cuts do the suffer. If you just Cut the branches, they will be powering on again in a few short weeks, but you will get taper started early
Peter Adams suggests that you cut back the new growth during every growing season, alternating the direction of the trunk at every cut. This will develop a Nice taper to the tree and only small cuts which will heal within the next year.

If you let go and not cut at all, you will end up with a Very powerful Stout trunk, but a very large Cut to fix that will take many years to heal, and almost as many years again to achieve a believable taper in the top section

I have done this with a collected Pin Oak, that has now been 4 years since chopping. The scar has barely healed, and only now the Second section of trunk is looking in proportion to the base.

Ken

im finding what i am trying to explain hard, not good at it sometimes. i will get all the links of information that i have read about growing for taper. ground growing etc. soon. looking them up now.

heres a few articles that i have found useful.

trunk developing - http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/trunks.htm

growth principles - http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/growprin.htm

obtaining max growth in pre bonsai - http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/growfast.htm

developing deciduous informal trunks - http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATdeve ... bonsai.htm

field growing trees - http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATfieldgrowing.htm

there are more that i found very helpful, as i find them i will link back to here.

Kc, i agree completely about the roots and getting into them will slow things down, when a tree is planted in the ground it takes time setting itself with its roots, then it will take off. spading once maybe twice a year will help keep the root system fine and closer to the trunk which is what we want. lifting the tree depending on species 1-4 years to get in control of ungainly, thick roots is needed to, there is always a catch with growing on as things will slow it down.

i can also agree with peter adams on that small cuts will give small scars and heal in lest time. this can sometimes not be avoided though when needing to go back to a main trunk. depending on the thickness of the trunk, if you have to cut back for taper you are going to be taking the size of that trunk as a cut size arent you? unless like peter says to make small cuts to induce taper which will work but it will all take time, the use of sacrifice branches near scars will help the process up, grant has shown scars can be healed in a reasonable time (not sure of the size? ) maybe thats a bad example.

the most important thing i was trying to get across though is to not go chopping or the likes with out at least reading up on things and learning why these techniques are put in place

jamie


edit- links sourced from http://www.evergreengardenworks.com and http://www.bonsai4me.com

I've been field growing for quite a few years now and believe I have learnt a few things. As Jamie said, quite difficult to explain in few words.
Leaving the tree in the same place for many years gives few very thick roots. I transplant and rootprune every 2-3 years.
Difficult to plan a tree ahead of time. They grow and change so much over a short time the plan no longer fits in the end. Just grow a trunk and style the resulting tree at the end.
Prune each year. Lots of smaller shoots = the same thickness as one large one but gives infinitely better taper and trunk line choices and scars are smaller.

That's a few of my experiences. Good luck

Thanks everyone for your replies and suggestions, it's all very helpful. I guess what I was trying to resolve is the apparent conflict between what Peter Adams suggests and Harry Harrington's assertion on his website 'bonsai4me' that pruning must not be done until the required thickness is achieved. I'm aware that different trees need to be treated differently (conifer's, deciduous etc...) but I really want to avoid the outcome I see in a lot of bonsai nurseries around the place: taperless trunks with huge scars.

Thanks for the links also guys but I've actually read them all and that's the reason why I've been confused as to the best course of action, because they conflict with what others have had to say. Peter Adams suggests cutting back heavily EVERY year to build taper while the trunk fattens, bonsai4me claims that this cannot be done, there's no ambiguity in what he says about it, If you read the 'field growing' article he now links to "proof" that yearly cutting back will stop fattening and won't lead to better taper.

Personally I see the logic in unrestrained growth of low sacrifice shoots while knocking the head off every year. Peter Adams says that with tridents you should cut everything back EVERY year to one node and then let them go again. This apparently achieves huge taper as the roots pull the profile out while the low shoots fatten the base each season. But with Acer Palmatum he recommends chopping the leader each year to change direction.

I have a bunch of maples headed for the field and I was hunting for some opinions based on everyone's experiences, so thanks everyone for chipping in!

I think also the evergreengardenworks advice sounds about right in regards to chopping at at least half the thickness you ultimately desire, but this is still at odds with Harrington.