AusBonsai

Hi Everyone,

This is a pretty basic question really. I've been bonsaiing for about 8 years now and my trees are starting to look ok (I have a Trident Maple, a cluster of 7 Japanese Maples and a group of 5 PJ Figs over a rock). My question at this stage is really with the Trident. I've noticed that the apex and the folige pads now consist of thick branches. I would much prefer them to be thin so that they taper better but at the same time don't want to remove them and begin again because it's taken about 5 years to get them this dense.

Is it a standard practice to replace folige pads and the apex every few years to keep the branches thin or is there something else i'm missing?

Sorry if this is a really obvious question but it's one i've had for awhile.

Thanks,

DR

what you can do is replace one branch at a time. defoliating a healthy plant in summer will help back budding. when a new shoot sprouts near one of the older branches you can train it to take the place of the branch you want removed. also, when new shoots first sprout, open the first two leaves and pinch out the second set of leaves before they fully form. this will help give smaller internodes and also stimulate back budding. due to the fact that the strongest growth on a trident is the apex you should probably thin it out regularly as it will grow back easily

Hi Dusty welcome to Ausbonsai.

The general idea as I understand is that when you prune the tree you are continually looking to increase the taper of the branch and apex(as well as increasing ramification to whatever degree). Also as most trees are apical dominant you need to keep this in check so the upper branches stay thinner while the lower branches thicken. So generally you trim the upper branches back more allowing the lower branches to grow out. Deciduous trees will often look some what out of shape through a good part of the growing season to accomplish this.
That is a very general explanation of a some what involved topic.
Maybe you could show a picture of the issues and I am sure some one will come up with a sensible plan and describe the solution in more detail.

Bretts and Astro, thanks so much for your replies. The advice you gave is a really big help.

Bretts i took your advice and uploaded some photos. Sorry about the ugly blue backdrop, the only wall i had was brown and so the tree was hard to see.

I also would love anyone's thoughts on the lower branch. For me it's far too straight. I've been thinking about shortening it to add some taper and complexity to it.

Thanks!

DR

hi. dont be afraid to cut back the branches. you can keep the same shape, just shorten the branches to force backbudding further down the branch towards the trunk line. you will also notice you have quite long internodes. i would suggest cutting the bottom branch back to a stub and let a new shoot grow. pinch out the tip as soon as possible. this will cause all secondary growth to have short internodes. allow the new branch to grow long so it thickens. then cut back and focus on secodary branches.

i have attached a pic of my brothers trident. as you can see the foliage is all at the tips and the branches are too long for the trunk size. i confvinced him to cut the branches back an inch and shorten all the secondary branches. he has done this and its looks better in shape alreayd. once it sprouts i will show an update.

if you dont want to rebuild the branch you can escape long internodes by being crafty with the seconday and third branches coming off the main branch. mainly wiring them to fill and gaps. shortening the branches each winter and defoliating (the top completely and the bottom partially to increase vigour) in summer, followed by pinching out the fresh growth tips of new shoots the following srping should fix this problem you have

i woudl suggest a rebuild though if you want to look at the long run. i would keep a section of the main branch structure and allow the new shoots off it to rebuild the branches. i would remove the bottom left branch as it handle bars with the bottom right branch. i am not too keep on the kink in the second lowest branch on the left. if you can somehow straighten it and lower it that woudl balance the tree significantly. there are some great posts on here as to how to wire and bend hard or brittle branches. i alsot think the tree is prob a little high. maybe reduce its height. you have a nice little tree and its potential is boundless. just be patient and it will come up lookign great,

Astro this is a huge help. I'm more than happy to give it a rebuild. The long term is what Bonsai is about! But i need to clarify what you're suggesting. Will most of the branches need reshooting? I imagine if i shorten the internodes on the lower branches then the top ones will have to go as well so that they don't end up thicker than the bottom branches.

You are right about the kink in the second lowest left branch. It has bothered me for awhile and i'll follow up those posts on training hard branches.

Thanks again for your help and advice!

DR

Hi Dusty
Thanks for the pics now we can see what we are talking about.
First of I may be wrong but it seems to me the tree may have been lacking in vigour at some stage. The buds look strong enough at the moment though.
Also I think the tree has some structural issues that need resolving.
I think the tree is too tall to be realistic. A good starting point is to consider the tree at a 1:6 ratio being the height of the tree 6 times the width of the trunk. You can go shorter or taller but it is a good place to start. Put this to your tree and it should have a finished height about where the green is.
To accomplish this you have a few options marked as chop points in red. The lower you go the more room you will have to create the tree but I am guessing this will be a shock for you so I recommend the middle choice for now.
Also the other factor is the inter node length from growth a couple of years ago, noted in blue. This indicates good growth but it will be a fault in the tree and the branches like this should be reduced to I would say the first internode of the branch if not removing the branch all together.
Now back to the health of the tree, this needs soughting before we can do any of the above. Something tells me this tree will benefit from a good dose of free rampant growth before we start any work. It is the perfect time to set it up for this but agian I am not sure you will like my advice
The best place for it to get that free rampant growth in the shortest time will be in a good old black nursery pot. When repotting I would remove all the old soil and repot with a decent soil(may be no different than you are now using but let us know what you have been using) and have the surface roots well covered.
Then I would let the tree grow unrestrained. I would like to see the tree in leaf before we decide a time line of what to do from there as it will give a good indication of the vigour of the tree. If the tree is not at 100% strength we would wait to ensure that before going any further. That could mean one full season of unrestrained growth.
When repotting the tree I would not reduce the roots by much at all except to tidy any straggly bits to make repotting in the new soil easier.
I am sure this probably a long way from what you had in mind but as you say the long term goal is what is important here and once we ensure the vigour of this tree in a good old nursery pot you will be surprised how quickly we will redevelop a much better tree!
Also it is the perfect time of the year to set this guy up for a bright future

Hi Bretts,

Mate thanks so much for the time you've put into analysing the tree and writing this response. Yes this is much more than I was expecting. This was my first bonsai. It was bought as a bushy unshaped tree in a nursery pot from a bonsai store. I shaped it to basically its present shape around 8 years ago. It could look sparse simply because it hasn't been in this shape long. But for the first year or so I had it at home and found that I developed a huge possum problem. They were eating all my plants. When they started eating the leaves off my PJ figs I took all the bonsais to my dad's place (he has quite a number of Bonsais). The Trident didn't get touched by the possums though. Dads place had great conditions for bonsais, excellent full sun, regular water, but because i could only be there around once a month in the growing season, i couldn't pinch prune it as much as i could. Another reason why it may look sparse.

But the tree has always been very healthy and has always grown very well.

I've only just repotted it for the growing season. I use the bonsai potting mix from my bonsai store which seems like quite good quality stuff. I've fertilised for spring with some osmocote and a little dynamic lifter. I didn't do any serious root pruning, just removed the stragly, hairy roots.

So again I need to clarify what you're suggesting since it was one step back from what Astro suggested: you're saying i should change the pot and let it grow free for probably a full growing season. But shall i do any pruning before that? e.g. reducing the height and the lower branch with the long internodes? Or is all that after a vigorous growing season? Now if i did take your advice and let it grow for a season, after the season what step shall i take? A structural prune to develop short internodes and new apex? Or shall i post a picture of the bushy tree to get some more thoughts here on how to develop?

And i also need to check, if it has, as i claim, been very healthy and vigorous since i've had it will it need the regrow? Or is the regrow needed to develop the new structure?

Thanks again for your help. This is really beneficial for me, since i really enjoy Bonsaiing but do need this help and advice.

DR

Great info and questions Dusty
Heading out this morning so just a quick response.
If in a nursery pot and the health is good as you say then I am thinking it would be a good idea to chop the tree back mid season. This will send a great second flush of growth.
That bonsai potting mix from the store is not popular with accomplished bonsai growers. But it will be absolutly fine in a good old nursery pot.
Gota go I will explian any other questions in more detial later

thanks Bretts. One more thing i forgot to mention. I moved house and now have the bonsais at home with no possum problem.

Thanks again,

DR