Palm fibre

[Handy Mick]

I would like to learn how to use palm fibre to shape some of my trees.
Can some one out there point me in the right direction to a good link, Videos are good but i dont mind fact sheets also.
Thanks
Mick

[Mitchell]

Oh come on! Really?
And your not going to at least fill in the gaps....

Fine I'll go google it.

[Mitchell]

Edit- Oh fantastic!! From what I gather a method of "tyeing down" branches but more complicated, in which you "web" the tree and "tie" it into shape.

This was the very first method I used when I was 12 years old. Seemed the simplest at the time. Just join the dots all over the plant with an organic twine/string/palm fibre. I would use jute string to simulate the palm fibre.

Back then there was no such thing as the "internet" and never knew what this was called, or that it even existed. Thanks for prompting me to research.

[MattA]

I would like to learn how to use palm fibre to shape some of my trees.
Can some one out there point me in the right direction to a good link, Videos are good but i dont mind fact sheets also.
Thanks
Mick

Hey Mick,

I have been using string most of my bonsai life similar to the way palm fibre is used, I find I get less breakage/damage than with using wire. I saw a few examples of trees styled this way in 2 books on Penjing, one by Hu Yunhua the other by Paul Lesniewicz. I have never been able to find anything even remotely instructive as to how to do it, so just made it up as I went along. The Yangzhou school is the one that traditionally uses this method of training.

If you dont have any luck finding any more info let me know & I will do up a photo series to show how I do it. Depending on what i am wanting to bend I usually use cotton twine, or if its thicker wood cotton sashcord. And I dont go all out like they do, usually restricting myself to a few bends each time... more from lack of patience.. it takes alot of practice & then time to bind ech branch & then do the tie ups...

If you want to have a try its pretty easy just start with the larger wood & main positioning.. then work your way out to the midsized & finally the smallest.. you have to fully secure each stage before doing the next... The few times i have gone all out the tree looked like a macrame torture system but it works & almost no chance of rope scarring soft bark like wire can.. It can still cut in if left too long.

Matt

[Mitchell]

Here's a 1.8m tall radiata I used jute string to "tie" it down and compress the bends. No wire, cables or rachets were used, just jute string.

[Handy Mick]

Thanks guys for the info, I was trying to find some sort of instruction , after thousands of years, there must be something in writing or inscribed in stone. NO
I have tried utube and google but got nothing in bonsai or penjing palm fibre, (except a snipet by Lyndsay Farr) thanks Lynds but this does not show a how to I'm hoping Graham Potter might do a 10 min vid
So if someone out there knows of an instruction on the braiding, webbing and tying down properly with palm fibre you will win a raspberry frog and a gold star for your effort

Thanks
Mick

[Philippe Tot]

You may be alitle far but at The Lingnan Penjing Academy of Australia,

This is tought here in high detail. In fact the use of wire is avoided here.

http://www.penjing.com.au

Term 1 is just now taking enrolements we are based in Sydney, Hurlstone park.


Take care

[Handy Mick]

Bump, anyone, I just want to know the technique, not the hidden secrets, common Philippe, give me something, that's what this site is all about is it not?
Mick

[Philippe Tot]

Hi Mick,

The Thread techniques are not simply tie branch here or there. Of course feel free to do so if this is all you are after.

But to do correctly, traditional methods are quite complex and yet simple. Also, the fibre's serve for alternate purposes other than simply tying the branch.

With an explanation , I’m sure you will respect, just as in Japanese wire techniques you cant simply tell someone how to wire well . There are many who wire perfectly and just as much rather poorly . This actively does harm to the tree or the overall point, as is not as effective because the technique is poor.
You have must certain ways to do it properly, hands on practice etc.

Same with fibre Techniques, esp more so being a completely different system, Penjing to that of Bonsai. And yes guys, there is big differences/ motives in every aspect.

Also there are many types of fibre that are used for variations and purposes. Breaks, bends, ties, pressure points, Qi developing, long term, short term etc... When I studied in China as a child , most of the Fibre we prepared hand made with Banana as well as Cain or Taro . The techniques of making these fibres are also interesting.

Have a great day,

And a Big Happy New Year to you

[Bretts]

I was getting the Lindsay clip for you Mick when I saw you already saw that.
http://vimeo.com/3345967
There is another closer look segment on palm fibre from Lindsay's friend. I think it was in the first series of WOB. I will have a look for it if you haven't seen it and can't find it.

Edit ; Haven't read Philippe's post yet

[Handy Mick]

Thanks all,
I do believe I have stumbled on the most hidden Chinese secret. Why is this ancient technique so hard to get a hold of?
I will contact wikileaks.
Mick

[Mitchell]

Maybe you have mate, apparently according to Google we're now the #1 reference to it.

[Handy Mick]

That's unbelievable! No seriously, I don't believe this. Well, for this reason, I suppose that's why Bonsai is known more throughout the world, compared to Penjing!

[MattA]

Hi Phillipe,

Thank you for posting about the upcoming term start. Unfortunately I live too far away to be able to attend and herein lies our problem with learning this ancient technique, along with all of the others employed in successful Penjing.

For those of us who would like to follow a different path it is not easy (nigh on impossible) to find decent information on the fibres, the way they are prepared & used for any given scenario etc I have avoided the use of wire most of my tree growing years, always able to find another means. It would be fantastic if you could maybe share with us some basics to help us along our path with Penjing.

Respectfully
Matt

[Philippe Tot]

Hi Mick,

Ok, I will shed light on this topic for you. Yes, compared with Bonsai , Penjing techniques are nowhere near publicised as Bonsai. Intact dormant.
The reason for this lies in the history of China, you must know firstly, that China first opened its doors to west in the mid 1960's, incidentally the first western country aloud inside its borders was Australia. (True)

I have been working on books for the past 7 years and I am hoping this will be available in a year or 2. And explaining it all in complex detail. Hence the 7 years

But another reason you will not find Penjing 'how to's' on google, or in books even, its China is internal. Rarely will you see China preaching ...as in contrast to the west preaching at ever chance available.

'It is not what is written, one must take note, rather what is not'

And the reason Bonsai literature is so adopted by the west is mainly due to the 2nd world war with the occupation of Japan. The Japanese were fearful, terrified of their American conquerors . They were led to believe that they are the worst form of human life. To be fearful, lock up there women, and keep children out of site. But once they found the Americans were mostly young men, children themselves and not the even beings they were told they were instantly relieved, the Japanese almost immediately fell in love with America, and vice versa. So all things Japanese was loved and brought to the west.

Now what about China during this period? ravished by the now ended war, prior this, years of civil revolutions and more wars. This city belonging to this western country another city to that western country. Continually being referred to as the 'sick men of Asia'.

Even after After world war 2, China had another revolution. So they really did not preach to the west at all. And when looking at all they faced, who could blame them. In fact, they still do not. And if they do, its usually to serve the needs of the west in films, or modern political agenda’s. Yes the internet has made this easier, but your internet will not go to deep in China. They even have censorship laws to what is out on the internet.

Also The cultural revolution did its best and sever damage in fact to delete much of traditional Chinese teachings.

This is why, the literature on Chinese Penjing is not available . Other than a few coffee table type , picture books and you can list them all on one hand. Not many and Good books, but not offering any depth. Even the ones written by Chinese have tailor made it for westerners.

As opposed to Bonsai...1000's., 10 new books every month...on any subject.

The usual way, to learn Penjing is not on google. And if you do see some information on the internet, I assure you. Most of it is an interpretation of someone doing Japanese Bonsai laying comparisons. Or 'hoo har' theories.

Big mistake. Its like Dry land Swimming

Same as trying to give an expert opinion on the sweetness of an orange, when only have tasted an Apple. Rather fruitless right?
With regards to the fibre work alone, there are dozen of variations of techniques, if not more. Many of my students are learning these techniques, but it takes lots of time and are doing so over a few years.

They are not simply training the tree with fibre, they all must go deeper, much deeper.

Refer to my point as a guide, ' its not what is written, look rather what is not '. This adds a whole new depth to simply training your tree.

And should you struggle with this further, and if you are in Sydney you are more than welcome to pop in to see more in detail if not too study.

Friends are always welcome

Hope this explains this a little to you and others reading with regards to Penjing and 'Secrets'.

Take care,

Philippe Tot

The Lingnan Penjing Academy of Australia