AusBonsai

Hi all, Ive been re-potting like mad over the last few weeks and to my disappointment Ive noticed many of my trees have poorly developed or some even non existent nebari, leaving just a combination of tangled thick roots! All trees are of varying ages, some have been purchased from fellow Bonsai hobbyists, Bonsai nursery's as advanced pre-bonsai, but all are of some age and are quite advanced. To correct this poorly developed nebari in my trees I will most likely have to resort to such techniques as root grafting/and approach grafting. With all of my trees from now on I will be paying close attention to these potential faults in the future, especially when purchasing advanced stock from Bonsai nurseries! All of my trees developing in the ground I have lifted, root pruned and tied down to tiles to aid in developing better nebari for their future and overall development as great looking Bonsai.

My worth....

Whats your experience in this regard

Hi Sidd,

Thank you for the post -- I believe this is very common problem, not raised very often!

Not paying attention and fear. I have been correcting several of my trees in the past few years. The results have been below average. So I have to continue on.

My approach is to grow new roots on existing big roots, kill off the old parts. So I often dumped my trees into big tall plastic pots. I have expected results on tridents. But not so great on black pines.

To avoid this mistake when starting out, one need to understand what a desirable surface roots look like. And most importantly, learning the tolerance limit of the species that one work with in regard to root works: for example, it is okay to bare-root trident, therefore, when they still young, one can just completely clean out the roots, rearrange them for hopefully desirable outcome when repot, etc.

Best regards.

"especially when purchasing advanced stock from Bonsai nurseries"

There's an advanced stock section at bonsai nurseries? What you are doing is buying stock trees, generally trained towards bonsai, but the trees are just nursery trees. Granted you would expect when potting perhaps they would pot to establish nebari, but 9 times out of ten they are just operating as any nursery would.
So stock trees are just that, I would always assume they are un-worked roots wise, rather than assume they are sorted and leave them.

What concerns me a bit is, the stock you bought roots were not good, the bonsai you bought off other hobbyists roots were not good also. Thing is you can see what nebari, is there before you purchase. Perhaps you need to spend a bit more time examining them before buying, if you can't see the root spread dig the soil back and see what is going on. Unless you do that, your really buying site un-seen and should be aware of the risk of getting zilch established nebari.

Perhaps I am just a pessimist, if I always assume the worst, I am never disappointed.

Mitchell wrote:Granted you would expect when potting perhaps they would pot to establish nebari, but 9 times out of ten they are just operating as any nursery would.
So stock trees are just that, I would always assume they are un-worked roots wise, rather than assume they are sorted and leave them.

I agree with this, however it is something that also boils my blood! A bonsai nursery should be just that, a nursery that grows stock for bonsai, roots and all! It should not call itself a bonsai nursery if it is just growing standard stock trees that are shorter than normal!

And for our bonsai community to grow and develop we need to start to stand up to these nurseries and not spend our money on (far) below par stock. I know this will likely raise a few hackles but it's my opinion. I have all but stopped buying stock from bonsai nurseries as they aren't putting in the effort to grow the stock well. I have taken the approach that if you want it done right, you have to do it yourself! Just my two cents, don't kill me

Good evening Jarrod,

Perhaps an alternative would be to label the stock as "root-unexamined" or something like that -- given the un-disputed importance of roots and surface roots?

Cheers.

Jarrod wrote:

Mitchell wrote:Granted you would expect when potting perhaps they would pot to establish nebari, but 9 times out of ten they are just operating as any nursery would.
So stock trees are just that, I would always assume they are un-worked roots wise, rather than assume they are sorted and leave them.

I agree with this, however it is something that also boils my blood! A bonsai nursery should be just that, a nursery that grows stock for bonsai, roots and all! It should not call itself a bonsai nursery if it is just growing standard stock trees that are shorter than normal!

And for our bonsai community to grow and develop we need to start to stand up to these nurseries and not spend our money on (far) below par stock. I know this will likely raise a few hackles but it's my opinion. I have all but stopped buying stock from bonsai nurseries as they aren't putting in the effort to grow the stock well. I have taken the approach that if you want it done right, you have to do it yourself! Just my two cents, don't kill me

I couldn't agree with you more Jarrod.
Problem is if bonsai nurseries were to invest the man hours into the plants, it would not in many cases return dividends.
If you or me were to walk into a nursery, we would pay to get a better/more established tree, because we understand the benefit. Not everyone is like us though and willing to shell out the cash.

I agree totally with all comments already made. When I started I was a bit lazy and just didn't pay that much attention to the root structure. So long as the roots were strong I wasn't too concerned about their look. I regret that now. Now I need to do root grafts to improve the nebari of many of my trees which would otherwise be looking acceptable. In speaking to people at clubs and shows, it is amazing at just how many people (for whatever reason) pay little attention to the roots. Off course many people do but my observation is that many of us just don't and then down the track we regret it or just live with it.

I think Australia is still fairly young in the scheme of things. Some nurseries are improving in the comming demand for better stock while still keeping great value for money for those not wanting to spend as much. That is how I see it in NSW anyway.
I will always check the base of a tree on mature stock just like I check the taper and branch structure. The good thing about bonsai nurseries is they understand why you would do this (well most anyway ). I am pretty covert when checking the roots in a normal nursery
A couple of years ago I had the task of selecting a number of trees for the Cowra Japanes Garden Bonsai Collection. I selected half a dozen trees (plus a couple for me) at Ray Nesci's and plonked them on a cart. When I told Ray I was going to check their bases he suggested I go to his repotting bench to give them a good go over. Any that you don't like just leave them there and I will fix them up later he said. I Out of the 8 trees I found only 2 that did not have a good enough base that they would not need some major re-work. Yet there was a Zelkova I remember that I wish I still grabbed (for myself) as it could have been an amazing tree after a couple of years root work.
For about $35- $50 I guess these trees where planted out for a number of years and not lifted for root work (but I would not know?) I would imagine lifting these trees once or twice over this time would add a considerable amount to the price of the tree maybe 100% or more.

Another Bonsai nursery has a sign up Please look at trees but don't touch. I selected a stock tree here and went up the front to a bin/repotting area so I did not make a mess when checking the root base and was told to read the sign Look but don't touch, But how I can I check the base I siad but only got waved away

In contrast to Ray later telling me he was glad I took the time to check tree bases I know where I would rather spend my money.

I think the only answer for those wanting better stock at the moment is to talk about it with your nurseryman although they can't snap their fingers and deliver this. You may find they have special projects that have had the extra work put in and may sell for premium price. Or seek other growers that are growing for the top shelf buyers.

Great post Siddhar,

It is one of those things that we learn as we progress, hopefully bringing up the suject will save some people from making the same mistakes I have made.
I also hope this will also make the nurseries more diligent because the buyers are aware.
Over time I have developed a liking (and trust) for a few growers because I know that they do the work. I also look out for club sales where experienced growers prepare stock to a standard far higher than nurseries because they were originally planing to keep the tree.

It has taken a lot of years for me to recognise the importance of good nebai on bonsai, then more years to discover some of the techniques to achieve it. I do put a lot of work into producing the best roots that I can on the trees I grow here but some just will not cooperate - these are sold at reduced prices, if the rest of the tree is good, or scrapped.
The few trees with really great nebari mostly get siphoned off into my collection or snapped up by the few who know what to look for but a few do make it to the sales tables. As techniqes improve there should be more and more superior nebari coming onto the sales benches.
I find lots of buyers are frightened to check the roots before purchase but, like Ray, I'd rather have a satisfied customer than one who is disappointed when they get home.

Remember that bonsai sold by bonsai enthusiasts mostly have some faults and are sold because the grower now has better trees to concentrate on. Who would sell their best trees and keep the poor ones????

Maybe someone should do a tutorial on preparing and the sorting of roots.

Mick

Re bonsai nurseries, it should be a given that when you buy advanced pre bonsai the roots have been worked correctly for many years, if they are not then the plant is just nursery stock and not pre bonsai and should be labeled and priced accordingly. If a tree has been root pruned correctly from a very young age then the root pruning is a very quick job so time is really no excuse
Nebari is by far the most important part of a tree, its the oldest part of the plant and gives the tree a feeling of stability . With properly maintained radial roots the base of the tree will with time flare out and give the tree the sense of age. There are also important training aspects as well because the branch structure of a tree is inclined to follow the root system so a nicely flowing nebari will make it easier to develop a nicely flowing branch structure. What happens below the soil surface is also important so at repotting time the feeder roots should be combed out to remove any tangling or crossed roots, this will encourage the twigs to flow out in a nice smooth manner.
Many years ago I made the decision to grow all my own trees after getting tired of being confronted with what Siddhar has just found, now the roots of my trees are sorted long before they become valuable and plants with bad root systems are composted when the trees are very young, so the hit and miss aspect of nebari has been eliminated.
Craigw

Hi Mick,

Mr. Alpineart has done a few a few months back. I believe they are under the Tips and Advice section.

Cheers.

Handy Mick wrote:Maybe someone should do a tutorial on preparing and the sorting of roots.

Mick

Handy Mick wrote:Maybe someone should do a tutorial on preparing and the sorting of roots.

Mick

Great Idea Handy
See this Wiki Link on Nebari aned if you can think of how to add to it , let me know
https://www.ausbonsai.com.au/wiki/index.php?title=Nebari


If someone wants to Create a Howto on Developing good Nebari on both existing trees, and new Growing stock, then let me know and once complete I can then upload to our Wiki here
https://www.ausbonsai.com.au/wiki/index. ... &redlink=1

Ken

"especially when purchasing advanced stock from Bonsai nurseries"

There's an advanced stock section at bonsai nurseries? What you are doing is buying stock trees, generally trained towards bonsai, but the trees are just nursery trees. Granted you would expect when potting perhaps they would pot to establish nebari, but 9 times out of ten they are just operating as any nursery would.
So stock trees are just that, I would always assume they are un-worked roots wise, rather than assume they are sorted and leave them.

What concerns me a bit is, the stock you bought roots were not good, the bonsai you bought off other hobbyists roots were not good also. Thing is you can see what nebari, is there before you purchase.

G'day Mitchell, I guess what I failed to spell out was 'This is something I've just begun to realise as integral when choosing Bonsai, under any circumstance.' So I do agree that I, really am to blame, and through my ignorance I have made some poor choices

Re bonsai nurseries, it should be a given that when you buy advanced pre bonsai the roots have been worked correctly for many years, if they are not then the plant is just nursery stock and not pre bonsai and should be labeled and priced accordingly. If a tree has been root pruned correctly from a very young age then the root pruning is a very quick job so time is really no excuse
Nebari is by far the most important part of a tree, its the oldest part of the plant and gives the tree a feeling of stability

Thanks Craigw60 I agree completely with you sentiments. I have spent on average between $90-$250 for most of my raw material which relates to this post. I am happy to pay any amount as long as it equates to the overall quality of the stock on offer. It is a good thing that "TIME" is on my hands, because I will need plenty of it, to sort out the imperfections that I have paid good dollars for

Great post Siddhar, It is one of those things that we learn as we progress, hopefully bringing up the suject will save some people from making the same mistakes I have made.
I also hope this will also make the nurseries more diligent because the buyers are aware.

Thanks Gerard, and yes this is something that we do eventually come to realise. After many years of practice we begin to sift through the enormous array of information regarding this wonderful hobby.

I think Australia is still fairly young in the scheme of things. Some nurseries are improving in the comming demand for better stock while still keeping great value for money for those not wanting to spend as much. That is how I see it in NSW anyway.
I will always check the base of a tree on mature stock just like I check the taper and branch structure. The good thing about bonsai nurseries is they understand why you would do this (well most anyway)

You're right Bretts, Australia is still very young to this hobby. To be honest its the information I find coming out of Japan that has educated me the most. And as we all know these guys are something to aspire to