AusBonsai

Hey all,


I bought this guy today, my first Trident Maple. I bought it mostly for the nebari, which may be one sided, but I like the way it looks on the one side. It stands about 10 feet (3.048 meters?) tall and has a trunk of about 1.5 inches (3.81 cm). I just thought I would share it and see what you all think about trees with one sided nebari. Is it acceptable?

Here is the nice side with the nebari:



And here is the nebari free side:




There's a branch about a foot (30.48 cm) up that I circled in red that I plan on cutting back to:


So I just thought I would show you all and see what you think about one sided nebari, and also just gather any tips about Trident Maples that I can, seeing as this is my first. Thanks for any comments,


Ryan

You could always do the toothpick method for more roots.

Glenda wrote:You could always do the toothpick method for more roots.

Not sure I'm familiar with the toothpick method, care to explain?

check out this page on our wiki about nebari, as it has several good links to threads describing how to fix these issues
https://www.ausbonsai.com.au/wiki/index.php?title=Nebari

Ken

I wouldnt chop the top off, i would aerial layer 2x the top section first.
look in wiki for aerial layering first!

Thank you Ken and Petra!

Ken, great link and I will be sure to read up on that toothpick method!

Petra, I'm used to air layering, just not with non-tropicals. So come spring I'll air layer down low, then maybe plant that part of the tree in the ground and let it grow and take air layers off it over time.

Hi FG

That is a decent find. With strong work over the next couple of years it should be well on it's way. With bonsai, trunk root development especially, it is all a matter of give and take. We want lots of roots and branches to speed the development but we also need to remove alot to direct the growth where we want. This means any work we do usually has a down side as well and concessions must be made as far as growth goes.
Since we can't do much on the roots at the moment I would be looking at setting the tree up for a drastic root prune next spring.
I would chop hard now or very soon. Just as the leaves have harden off would be an acceptable time. I think just above where you circled the shoot is a good idea for now. This will encourage a multitude of branches lower down. I would then hedge trim this for the rest of the season. let it grow out strong then hedge trim back maybe 2-4 times in the growing season depending on vigor.
Then next spring as the buds swell re-pot back into the same pot with major root reduction on the thickest roots and give the rest a good trim. Make sure the tap root (if any, but I think there is) and other downward growing roots are removed. The idea will be to create balance in the vigor of these radiating roots. Plant the tree deep back in the pot so fresh roots are not hindered.
The work you do this season on the trunk should mean that there will be no need to trim much at all of the branches at the time of re-potting.
This means we will have lots of new shoots on the trunk encouraging the new root system to grow vigorously.
Depending on vigor in this second year after re potting you may just let the tree grow to encourage great root growth or you may again hedge trim or be a little more drastic and start to shape the trunk by choosing a new leader once the tree is obviously growing strongly again.


Good luck.

Bretts wrote:Hi FG

That is a decent find. With strong work over the next couple of years it should be well on it's way. With bonsai, trunk root development especially, it is all a matter of give and take. We want lots of roots and branches to speed the development but we also need to remove alot to direct the growth where we want. This means any work we do usually has a down side as well and concessions must be made as far as growth goes.
Since we can't do much on the roots at the moment I would be looking at setting the tree up for a drastic root prune next spring.
I would chop hard now or very soon. Just as the leaves have harden off would be an acceptable time. I think just above where you circled the shoot is a good idea for now. This will encourage a multitude of branches lower down. I would then hedge trim this for the rest of the season. let it grow out strong then hedge trim back maybe 2-4 times in the growing season depending on vigor.
Then next spring as the buds swell re-pot back into the same pot with major root reduction on the thickest roots and give the rest a good trim. Make sure the tap root (if any, but I think there is) and other downward growing roots are removed. The idea will be to create balance in the vigor of these radiating roots. Plant the tree deep back in the pot so fresh roots are not hindered.
The work you do this season on the trunk should mean that there will be no need to trim much at all of the branches at the time of re-potting.
This means we will have lots of new shoots on the trunk encouraging the new root system to grow vigorously.
Depending on vigor in this second year after re potting you may just let the tree grow to encourage great root growth or you may again hedge trim or be a little more drastic and start to shape the trunk by choosing a new leader once the tree is obviously growing strongly again.


Good luck.

Thanks Bretts! Great help!

I'm in the U.S., and we're currently readying to go into winter, whereas I believe you guys are getting ready to go into spring. I've read that instead of chopping back in the spring that you chop Tridents back in winter. This is because the loss of sap will be less, or so I've read. I plan on having a shorter sized tree with this guy. I'm curious though, how much of the root mass can you take off at one time?

Tridents are very resilient. When digging field grown tridents in our cool climate we routinely cut 90% of the roots off. Roots are cut to just leave stubs about 2-3 cm long. May be different in your warmer climate though.
Roots are like branches - they only grow longer and eventually you want to get the tree into a bonsai pot so you'll need a good mass of fine roots close to the trunk. Better to cut roots hard when you first cut back the trunk than later when you have built a good branch structure.
Also like branches, roots shoot several new roots from the cut ends. Cutting roots short initially starts a well ramified rootsystem. At each root pruning cut new roots back to just past the previous cut to build up a mass of fine roots.
Completely cut off all roots heading down to make the tree rely on the side roots. That makes the trunk flare out and improves nebari.

Chicken foot bonsai! I have exactly the same problem on my Shohin Elm entry. Gonna have to work on that as well!

Hi FG
Sorry I did not notice you where in the northern hemisphere. Considering this, time might be best spent doing the process in a much shorter time span. I would chop the trunk now as stated (this will at least set the tree up to back bud profusely come spring) and chop the roots as Shibui states in early spring.

Shibui I believe in the practice of using shoot growth to encourage/speed root growth. The more shoots you have the more hormones are sent down the trunk to tell the tree to grow roots. Brent Waltson explains it well here in our discussion on using Auxins.

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=548

Basically the idea is not to reduce the branches too much (although we do not ignore horticultural balance) at the time or root cutting as it hinders root regeneration. It treats deciduous trees more like pines in the way of root work one year branch reduction another.

shibui wrote:Tridents are very resilient. When digging field grown tridents in our cool climate we routinely cut 90% of the roots off. Roots are cut to just leave stubs about 2-3 cm long. May be different in your warmer climate though.
Roots are like branches - they only grow longer and eventually you want to get the tree into a bonsai pot so you'll need a good mass of fine roots close to the trunk. Better to cut roots hard when you first cut back the trunk than later when you have built a good branch structure.
Also like branches, roots shoot several new roots from the cut ends. Cutting roots short initially starts a well ramified rootsystem. At each root pruning cut new roots back to just past the previous cut to build up a mass of fine roots.
Completely cut off all roots heading down to make the tree rely on the side roots. That makes the trunk flare out and improves nebari.

90% huh? That is a great amount of the rootball. In the spring I will go ahead and take that off. Thanks for the re-assurance about Tridents being resilient!

Bretts wrote:Hi FG
Sorry I did not notice you where in the northern hemisphere. Considering this, time might be best spent doing the process in a much shorter time span. I would chop the trunk now as stated (this will at least set the tree up to back bud profusely come spring) and chop the roots as Shibui states in early spring.

Shibui I believe in the practice of using shoot growth to encourage/speed root growth. The more shoots you have the more hormones are sent down the trunk to tell the tree to grow roots. Brent Waltson explains it well here in our discussion on using Auxins.

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=548

Basically the idea is not to reduce the branches too much (although we do not ignore horticultural balance) at the time or root cutting as it hinders root regeneration. It treats deciduous trees more like pines in the way of root work one year branch reduction another.

I think I'll wait until after leaf drop, I should've said we're entering fall now, not winter. Oops. But once the leaves drop I'll cut it back.

Very interesting thread! It confused the hell outta me, but you and Brent clearly know what you're talking about!

Brent does at least I felt privaliged to debate the subject with him and as always learn't alot in doing so.
It has been sugested to me (by good teachers) that late Summer early Autumn is a very good time to chop deciduous trees so I would suggest that chopping at this time for you could be a good idea!
Good luck

Bretts wrote: It has been sugested to me (by good teachers) that late Summer early Autumn is a very good time to chop deciduous trees so I would suggest that chopping at this time for you could be a good idea!

According to B4Me, after leaf drop or in winter would be the right time to chop:

http://www.bonsai4me.com/SpeciesGuide/A ... ianum.html

Wonder why the teachers would suggest summer?? I figured if I chopped around now the new growth that sprouts wouldn't have enough time to harden off before the tree drops leaves...