AusBonsai

Hi Folks

I would welcome some suggestions of how much of the height to remove.

I thought removing the top just above the second from bottom layer of branches. Use one of these branches as the new apex. The two thick bottom most branches need removing as there is too much gap before any foliage. There are three thin branches that could be used for the first left, right and back branches.

If the trunk was tilted to the left it would give the trunk more movement.

I have attached a photo of the proposed front.

Hi Fred,

It's kind of sad that no one could be bothered to respond to your reqeust until a day and half later What is the point of this place?

I'll tell you as I see it, Fred, and there is no intent to upset, but, unfortunately, you have bought a tree with very, very little potential as a bonsai.

Paul

63pmp wrote:Hi Fred,

It's kind of sad that no one could be bothered to respond to your reqeust until a day and half later What is the point of this place?

I'll tell you as I see it, Fred, and there is no intent to upset, but, unfortunately, you have bought a tree with very, very little potential as a bonsai.

Paul

Sorta kinda strange comments.
why did not you reply sooner then?
The second statement probably explains the answer to the first one

Fred the problem with pines is they do not readily back bud onto old wood, Sometimes they do but not always. as your tree has foliage al long way from threnk then you have few a problems to Solve
Not much movement in the lower trunk. - You can fix by Wiring and bending the crap out of it. but is not for the feint of heart.
Sparse foliage. - You can fix this by either bending extensively to bring the foliage back in closer, or grafting new branches or Scions. You colud possibly cut back to try and force back budding as well.

To fix this tree will take a long time and is done by quite advanced techniques as well.

Cutting back hard to where yo suggest my work and you have nothing to lose and lots to gain

Ken

Hi Paul and Ken

Thanks for your advice. The tree was a freeby luckily.

I will go ahead with cutting it down to where I suggested and start with the thinner branches which have foliage closer to the trunk and see what happens. It should back bud.

It will be a learning experience.

Fred

Hi Ken,

I've been away for a couple of days, I found this languishing on page two with 68 views and no responses. Certainly not every posting needs a comment, but at least this one had a halfway decent picture to it and a logical request, why has non one posted up?

My comments reflect my disapointment at the current trend of ignoring posts of pleas for help with trees that have little potential. I can't see that ignoring someone teachers them anything positive.

Fred,

Had some thoughts about your tree, and since I can't sleep I might as well write.

Ken's options are good, and you may get some back budding, mugos are better than other pines at back budding, however the energy imbalance will work against you here, and that needs addressing first if you are to get successful backbudding.

Bending tends to produce rounded curves, not abrupt, dramatic ones which are best for trunks, and your first branch will still be a long way up the trunk. If you are prepared to use it as a practice tree then look at grafting some branches down low. You will have to wait till next winter, then field growing or at least repot into a large planter,that would be the fastest way of moving ahead with this tree. You could probably still repot it now. I would also layer off the top of the tree this year. Practice wrapping with raffia and bending, see what sort of angles you can get in those long branches, its worth it to just to see that bending doesn't get the "Z" shapes required for a good trunk that a chop will get. Mugo are slow to grow though, so it will take some time.

There are some good examples of tall straight bonsai, the branches have to be very short and close to the trunk, and branch placement follows Fibonacci sequence or golden mean priniciple very closely. Very short needles and tight ramification. In other words the tree has to have a specific design to fit into, and then you put the branches where they need to go. Almost a cubist abstraction of a tree, as opposed to a conventinal bonsai. None of it's easy and low chances it will look any good. You may need to make the trunk arrow straight for it to work, which would be easier than trying to put interesting curves in it.

And check out the wiki on what to look for in a starter plant.

Paul

Hi Fred , personally i would either layer to top off and begin two new trainers or simple apply some serious bends from the base to the upper section reducing the height by 50 % with loosing any length in the trunk itself . The vigorous healthy growth this pine has , pinching the candles back by snapping them off by half no doubt will aid in back budding , if of course a Mugo pine will back bud . Some pines do back bud quite well usually on wood under 10 years old . I myself have extensive collection of Yamadori pines , Northern Hemisphere species collected from test plots .

I do i most cases go against the norm and create trunks that you would only see in the Northern hemisphere, owing to the fact that pines down under haven't been here for more than a century so the self sown stock i collect are usually around 5 -20 years old . If you haven't cut it down as yet do a google search on Mugo Pines or Bonsai Mugo Pines and this will give you some fantastic idea's as to the natural contortion that Mugo's are well known for in the wild .

Mountain Pines are manipulated by wind and snow as well as other natural forces , well worth a search before cutting it down , Inarch grafting is quite simple to do compared to other forms of grafting , this also allows one to create branches in the voids between the natural whorls or branches.. \

Keep us post on the progression .

Cheers Alpineart

I really was going to answer this post - promise. I went looking for a picture of a similar tree that I has seen on the web at some time and the great things the owner had done with it. I looked and looked and couldn't find it. By then I had forgotten to come back to post.

Hi Fred,

I was a bit busy yesterday but here is a link to a Pine that ; over a period of about 6 months; I have bent a little.

viewtopic.php?f=131&t=8739

mugo pines dont thicken as quickly or as much as scots pine can but you might consider using the drill, wrap and bend technique on your mugo. Wait till spring is over first though.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8745&hilit=+Bending+pine

grant

..any of the above is good advice/tips from some pretty experienced hands...

.. .. but it would make a great 3, 4 - 5 ft Christmas tree ... u could keep it in a decent sized pot,
prune it to shape and have ur own xmas tree for years to come .. !!

I have a norwegian spruce that I am 'christmassing' - aboot 14 inches tall ...

..good luck whatever u do with it.. just keep us all posted with pics..


Matt.

hi Fred
my comments and ideas about bending trees comes largely from the works of a you guy in Czechoslovakia - Pavel Slovak. He does some amazining thisngs and usually posts them on IBC and his latest is here http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t8188 ... st-styling
check out some of his other trees as he has done quite a few Mugho and Sylvestris pines with long lanky foliage.

Thansk Peter for the reply too. Many reasons for threads not getting posts and usually they are knocked off the front page quickly, but usually difficult stock will only elicit a response when the more experienced here see them or have an idea

ken

Hi Folks

Thanks for your many very interesting replies. I haven't cut the tree yet and am wading through your ideas.

Paul - I had thought of foreshortening the lower branches but not the trunk. I thought the trunk would be too thick. As you say I am still left with the problem of the lowest branch being too high up the trunk. This is where Grant's technique of Drill, wrap and bend will come into play by shortening the trunk.

Alpineart - I will check out other mugo bonsai for some ideas. I have used inarch grafting on tomato plants.

Grant - I like the idea of your Drill, wrap and bend technique. This will be ideal to foreshorten the trunk and get some movement into it. I assume you position the holes and the subsequent bends so that any branches you intend keeping are not on the inside of curves? What size drill(s) did you use? For my tree, I would aim for an S shape by initially using the natural bend in the lower trunk but making it more extreme?

Matt - I initially thought of putting the tree in the too hard basket and leaving it as a potted tree. But now I want to have as go and see what I can achieve. I already have a Xmas tree. It is a 6ft C.deodara which I have had for 20 years. O'k it doesn't have the pine smell but it is gum free. I formerly moved it on to the terrace at Xmas time and decorated it. After one of the 7600 earthquakes we have had over the past year broke the pot, I have put it into a half barrel. It is now too heavy to move and so I have resorted to an artificial fibre optic tree.

Ken - Great website. I will check out more of Pavel's work. His Sylvestris looks amazing.

Regards

Fred

Grant - I like the idea of your Drill, wrap and bend technique. This will be ideal to foreshorten the trunk and get some movement into it. I assume you position the holes and the subsequent bends so that any branches you intend keeping are not on the inside of curves? What size drill(s) did you use? For my tree, I would aim for an S shape by initially using the natural bend in the lower trunk but making it more extreme?

Regards

Fred[/quote]

Follow any guidelines you normally follow re branches on the inside of curves but bending and twisting will often put branches where you least expect it so hang on to most branches until the bend is done. You can remove branches later if you need to. But equally be creative and not hemmed in by too many "guidelines".

Drill size is like wire size; use the minimum size that does the job.

grant

Hi Grant

Thanks for your further advice on the drill, wrap and bend method.

Fred

Fred wrote:Hi Grant

Thanks for your further advice on the drill, wrap and bend method.

Fred

X2 now i have some direction for my mugo as well.

Hi Folks

Just a thought. What if I styled it as a Literati. There are plenty of healthy branches at the top. This would eliminate the problem of trying to get branches to back bud or foreshortening them. I could put a number of twists and turns into the trunk, left to right and forward to back. Then thin out the top.

I have attached a photo of the tree with the lower branches removed.

Fred