How to grow native pre-bonsai?

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Rory
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Re: How to grow native pre-bonsai?

Post by Rory »

Mickeyjaytee wrote: January 20th, 2023, 10:35 pm Well I’m a tad deflated I won’t lie. I have so many plants I’ve just potted up thinking I was doing the right thing :palm:

Rory, should I still try bare root and sort out the roots for these? Many are quite large bushes now, most about average sized nursery stock but, have had this spring and summer to grow…

Question. When I bare root the plants, do I try fan them out in a horizontal direction around the plant?

Some of the tube stock was grossly root bound too… how can I work with these? Perhaps chop the bottom off and go from there?
Don't be deflated at all. Just keep persevering. The hobby is awesome.
When I started, I killed a tonne of stock from trial and error. Fortunately I am incredibly optimistic and just kept trying different methods.

If they've been growing for many seasons since you repotted them then yes, I would separate all the roots and fan them out now. Bareroot them gently yes. If you can let me know what species you have, I can give more specific advice on rootwork. For example, some roots you need to be careful with, because if you bend them too much, they'll snap or the protective layer will strip off and potentially kill the remainder of the root to the tip. The same can be done with having your hose on too strong a jet and stripping the outer layer of the root. This is a common root death that can happen with Leptospermum roots. However roots like Casuarina and Banksia can be incredibly tough and can tolerate a stronger water spray.

Also, don't just put the new mix in the pot, then plonk the roots down on that and fill in the top with more mix. You need to carefully place all the mix gently into the roots so they aren't squashed all down on each other. For this it really helps to pour in dry River Sand. It helps to fill in the air pockets and 'lock in' the roots and give it a binding strength that helps to keep the roots well fanned out and not simply squashed. Once you pour in each layer of river sand with your potting mix, wet it. This locks in the roots and stops them curling back to the position they were in before you spread them out. Think of it like an hour glass, and you see the sand gently falling and filling in the glass below perfectly. If you simply plonk a handful of mix onto roots, it doesn't usually fill all the areas in and the roots can curl back into their previous positions.

Most experts after they're repotted use chopsticks to push down and allow the mix to fall into place into the large pockets of air. But if you use dry river sand with each layer as you go adding the potting mix gently and then wetting each time before you add the next layer, it greatly reduces the need for this afterwards and means less damage to the roots by stabbing at them. (that advice is getting a bit pedantic though I know). Its kind of like gradual cement layers. Adding water to the river sand of each layer, binds the mix instantly as you go.

When I separate the roots, I like to have them going at a gradual angle into the pot, not horizontal. But each to their own.
However if you want to eventually have the bonsai in a very shallow pot (and the roots growing out along the ground like you see with figs) then yes you will need them closer to horizontal, but straight out from the base usually looks a bit odd. I like the roots to come out at a gradual angle going out and low, about 20 to 30 degrees or so, depending on the species.

When you say the tube stock was grossly root bound, don't just cut off the bottom, because you might find that the main trunk goes right down and then the roots grow back up. And just cutting off the bottom 1/4 might be cutting the main trunk line and losing nearly all the roots. I sort of rip chunks of root off with my hands and use my fingers as a guide to tell me whether there are major roots there or not. I kind of also use my fingers like you're scratching hard at the rootball. It shreds your fingers, but if you love Bonsai, you don't care.
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Bonsai: Casuarina Leptospermum Banksia Phebalium Baeckea Melalueca Ficus

Growing Australian natives as Bonsai: viewtopic.php?p=289480#p289480

Buying and repotting Native nursery material: viewtopic.php?f=78&t=30724

Growing tips for Casuarina as Bonsai: viewtopic.php?p=244995#p244995

How to reduce moss from the trunk without damaging the bark: viewtopic.php?p=295227#p295227
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Re: How to grow native pre-bonsai?

Post by Mickeyjaytee »

Thanks for such a long, detailed reply Rory! Here’s reply 2, the first didn’t post for some reason.

So as for plants I will try list (it’s gonna be loooong) the different cultivars but, just generally:

Leptospermum: scoparium, nitens, Mesmer eyes, big red, sericeum,
laevigatum, rotundifolium, pink cascade, rubrum nanum

Melaleuca: rhaphiophylla, cuticularis, incana, incana nana, huegelii, linarifolia, little red, bracteata

Banksia: spinulosa var spinulosa, nutans, ashy dwarf

A few Lilly pillies of differing types

Callistemon: little John

Kunzea: baxteri, ambigua, glabrescens, recurva, clavata, ericofolia

Calytrix

Callistris: pressii

Grevillea: pink pixie, Scarlett rose,

Sannantha tozerensis, baeckea virgata

Darwinia: pinifolia, mt burdett.

I had a look for river sand but, can’t seem to find any. The closest I could see was Bunnings with coarse sand. Will this suffice? I usually just use a sand heavy potting mix from my local Australian native nursery that they make themselves. Great drainage.

Today is going to be 38 so I’m wondering is that too hot or will I be ok if I keep the roots moist?

Once again thank you for such a detailed reply. I’m sure I’ll have more questions as I go along repotting today :palm:
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Re: How to grow native pre-bonsai?

Post by TimS »

Thanks for sharing so much detail Rory; i don't grow natives myself but we and others are going to benefit so much for your knowledge and experience in this thread, and it's applicable outside of natives too :tu:
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Re: How to grow native pre-bonsai?

Post by Rory »

38 is very hot. The only thing you’d have to make sure is that the roots stay wet. Other than that I’ve had no dramas at all repotting in that temperature.

The only things I’d be careful about is how much root damage and removal you do is with the Leptospermums amd Grevillias.
Some of those Leptospermum can be incredibly sensitive to root disturbance, so if they’re good material, then take it very slowly.
Grevillea can be both hardy and can be sensitive. I’ve experienced both with root pruning.

Make sure the Banksia are in a very free draining mix.
You can usually get Washed River sand from landscape companies.
I’m not sure how coarse a Bunnings mix would be, but it’s preferable to have the finer grains so it can settle into the pockets of your regular mix…. If that makes sense.

I haven’t had any luck with Darwinia, but that was because of Myrtle Rust.

All the others should be fairly good with root reduction.

The mix from your local native nursery is probably got decent drainage if it’s specifically made for natives but hard to tell. It means a blanket mix, so it might also be made to retain moisture.
If it’s average draining, then just don’t overpot the Banksia. In other words, make sure whatever pot you use that the roots take up most of the mix inside that pot.
Rory
I style Bonsai naturally, just as they would appear in the wild.
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Bonsai: Casuarina Leptospermum Banksia Phebalium Baeckea Melalueca Ficus

Growing Australian natives as Bonsai: viewtopic.php?p=289480#p289480

Buying and repotting Native nursery material: viewtopic.php?f=78&t=30724

Growing tips for Casuarina as Bonsai: viewtopic.php?p=244995#p244995

How to reduce moss from the trunk without damaging the bark: viewtopic.php?p=295227#p295227
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Re: How to grow native pre-bonsai?

Post by Mickeyjaytee »

Rory wrote: January 21st, 2023, 11:31 am 38 is very hot. The only thing you’d have to make sure is that the roots stay wet. Other than that I’ve had no dramas at all repotting in that temperature.

The only things I’d be careful about is how much root damage and removal you do is with the Leptospermums amd Grevillias.
Some of those Leptospermum can be incredibly sensitive to root disturbance, so if they’re good material, then take it very slowly.
Grevillea can be both hardy and can be sensitive. I’ve experienced both with root pruning.

Make sure the Banksia are in a very free draining mix.
You can usually get Washed River sand from landscape companies.
I’m not sure how coarse a Bunnings mix would be, but it’s preferable to have the finer grains so it can settle into the pockets of your regular mix…. If that makes sense.

I haven’t had any luck with Darwinia, but that was because of Myrtle Rust.

All the others should be fairly good with root reduction.

The mix from your local native nursery is probably got decent drainage if it’s specifically made for natives but hard to tell. It means a blanket mix, so it might also be made to retain moisture.
If it’s average draining, then just don’t overpot the Banksia. In other words, make sure whatever pot you use that the roots take up most of the mix inside that pot.
Here’s a video where I got my ideas from and thought it was normal practise to just slip pot and go from there without any root work:

https://youtu.be/rAueAL9D25c

Is this bad practice?

Anyways on to the reply. Thanks Rory, you’re a champ. I’ll give it a go today. I’ll see if I can also get some sand. I’m having trouble finding it though. The nursery miz is really good quality. Dries out super fast with the sand content but, is definitely made for west Aussie natives.

We don’t have myrtle rust here so fingers crossed I can pull off something amazing!

Should I hike off wiring and foliage reduction while doing this?

Cheers mate!

Edit: I found propagation sand. Hopefully that is sufficient. Do I place some soil in the pot, put in the plant and then place the sand around the roots to help fill in around the roots then top up with soil? A little unsure on the process
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Re: How to grow native pre-bonsai?

Post by Rory »

If you’re in WA, the mix you have then might be okay if they make it to supposedly last the strong hot summer there, hard to say.
But if they’ve made it to last the strong WA summer l, then adding more sand might be too dangerous if they dry out too quickly. It’s very hard to say without feeling and seeing the mix as you crush it.

Not sure what you mean by hike off foliage reduction and wiring
But for me I don’t usually style them when I do the first repot and rootwork no. I would leave most of the foliage on all of them yes.
It doesn’t hurt to reduce a little foliage if you’ve taken a lot off the roots tho. Basically unless you have taken off an enormous percent of the roots, then usually the tree can support the foliage. Buts it all within reason. If you went too far and have taken off 80-90% of the roots, then the root system can’t support the original mass of foliage and you should probably reduce the foliage somewhat.
The only exception I find with this is Banksia, as they prefer to have their foliage left on the tree to speed up recovery.

As far as the video is concerned. It’s hard to say. He may have already worked the interior root system years before and knew that he just wanted to extend the growing of the tree. However I feel that slip potting is not a practise I ever use. It’s mainly for the nursery trade to mass produce and upsize their material. Nothing wrong with it, but you aren’t working the roots each time and it’s a lazy way of working your bonsai. Personally I don’t recommend it no.
Rory
I style Bonsai naturally, just as they would appear in the wild.
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Bonsai: Casuarina Leptospermum Banksia Phebalium Baeckea Melalueca Ficus

Growing Australian natives as Bonsai: viewtopic.php?p=289480#p289480

Buying and repotting Native nursery material: viewtopic.php?f=78&t=30724

Growing tips for Casuarina as Bonsai: viewtopic.php?p=244995#p244995

How to reduce moss from the trunk without damaging the bark: viewtopic.php?p=295227#p295227
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Re: How to grow native pre-bonsai?

Post by Mickeyjaytee »

Thanks Rory, I do appreciate that. I meant hack off foliage not hike. Bloody auto spell.

Last question, I guess it’s species dependent but, should root work be done every year? I know natives seem to grow fast so thought I’d ask.

Time I joined a club!

Thanks so much mate, your help is greatly appreciated :yes:
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Re: How to grow native pre-bonsai?

Post by Rory »

Mickeyjaytee wrote: January 21st, 2023, 5:17 pm Thanks Rory, I do appreciate that. I meant hack off foliage not hike. Bloody auto spell.

Last question, I guess it’s species dependent but, should root work be done every year? I know natives seem to grow fast so thought I’d ask.

Time I joined a club!

Thanks so much mate, your help is greatly appreciated :yes:
Haha, hacking, not hiking, had me confused,…now that makes sense. :lol:

That is a very good question though. You will get a lot of answers from people with their opinions.
There are a few factors to consider.
I’ll first explain my situation. I have about 100 trees. For me, repotting 100 trees every year is hard work. And the problem with natives is that they should probably be done in the strong warm growing periods. But even so, I wouldn’t repot a tree every year though no. I am at the stage where I repot usually every second year. For my shohin trees, I might do it yearly, and with material that I am growing hard, might do the roots every third year if I’ve been lazy.
You only need to repot and reduce the roots of the tree when the pot is getting full of roots. You can usually tell this by a few ways:

The roots are coming out the bottom.
When you push your finger deep into the mix, it is very hard to find any space so you know the roots are compact.
The tree usually dries out quickly because the roots are sucking up what small amount of water is being retained in pockets.

Now, the other thing to consider is your plan for the individual tree.
If you’re wanting a shohin or mame tree, and you are in the refinement stage, it might be helpful to repot every year yes. However if the tree isn’t in great health and hasn’t put on a lot of growth, then reducing the roots is a bad idea. You can check the roots of course, but sometimes trees just don’t grow as much as the one near them for whatever reason. If the tree has gone gangbusters, then yep, it’s a good bet that the tree could do with a root trim and tidy up in anticipation for another good year of growth to keep the roots compact.
But if you’re at the stage of trying to bulk up the tree, you could skip a year and do it every two years.
But again, this advice is species dependent…. For example I don’t like to leave Banksia and Leptospermum for more than 2 years maximum otherwise you get problems with the root systems.
For Casuarina, Melaleuca, Baeckea, Ficus, and other hardy root systems, you can safely go quite a few years between root prunes. But it’s still better to keep the roots in check if the tree is healthy and growing strong. So if you’re in the strong bulk up phase of your bonsai, I would suggest every 2 years.

But… if the tree is looking a bit sickly or not growing much, or seems to be dying off in parts, don’t wait, always check the roots to see what might be going on. A silent killer is when the roots get so compacted that water is running off the mix and not penetrating the rootball and thus the tree is slowly dying from lack of water.
Rory
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Bonsai: Casuarina Leptospermum Banksia Phebalium Baeckea Melalueca Ficus

Growing Australian natives as Bonsai: viewtopic.php?p=289480#p289480

Buying and repotting Native nursery material: viewtopic.php?f=78&t=30724

Growing tips for Casuarina as Bonsai: viewtopic.php?p=244995#p244995

How to reduce moss from the trunk without damaging the bark: viewtopic.php?p=295227#p295227
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Re: How to grow native pre-bonsai?

Post by Mickeyjaytee »

Thanks mate, I appreciate that. It’s a lot of work!

I just gave it a go and well, I’m completely disheartened and just don’t know what I’m doing. From what others have said is try not to let the roots even cross over. It’s impossible. The roots are a jumbled sensitive mess.

I tried using water and found the roots have 2 clumps, one at the top and one at the bottom. Separation I just can’t see. I just ended up chopping the bottom off and tried spreading the remaining roots out. I know it’s not right but, I’m quite frustrated.

I thought the majority of root work happened when putting the tree into a bonsai pot, not for stock that I guess isn’t even prebonsai yet.

I guess I need a pro to show me in person.

Might just have to put this on the back burner for now :oops:

Thanks for the help , I greatly appreciate it!
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Re: How to grow native pre-bonsai?

Post by TimS »

Takes time to get used to it, don’t be too hard on yourself. I get frustrated doing the same thing with deciduous trees removing all the soil and arranging roots. Even though they are generally not sensitive at all to bare rooting, it’s still tedious even knowing you can go ham on them.

Keep practicing, root bound plants that are sensitive to root work is about as hard as it gets, so you’re starting the climb at the 20% gradient uphill section of bonsai root work for sure
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Re: How to grow native pre-bonsai?

Post by Mickeyjaytee »

Thanks Tim. I’m feeling quite down about it. I guess mainly from not really knowing what I’m doing. I have probably condemned my prebonsais to an early death ☹️

I’ve hit up a couple of clubs so maybe someone can show me in person so I know what I’m doing. For now I guess it’s best to let the plants just grow and leave them alone til I can do this with confidence.

It’s quite disheartening because I just love bonsai and the styles and beauty of the tree that each individual creates. It’s quite a marvellous thing.

I’m a butcher in a surgery at the moment 😭
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Re: How to grow native pre-bonsai?

Post by Rory »

Mickeyjaytee,

DO NOT give up and don’t be disheartened.
Most users here won’t admit that they’ve killed more bonsai than they care to admit.

I can tell you…. I have killed many many more bonsai than I have kept alive. When I started out in the 90s I had like 300. I don’t have any of those alive today. I knew a lot less than you, but I had optimism and I’m glad I kept going forward. We didn’t have this forum or the internet. We had books and nurseries.

Firstly, I hear your pain. But do not be disheartened simply because you have a root crossing over. Remember! Roots grow like the branching too. You will get new roots forming. Leave them crossed if there aren’t many left and next year you’ll have more and more roots start to develop and often if you bury the base below the soil line you’ll get new roots shooting from the base.

Remember my advice is not to remove much roots. Just separate as best as you can. If they’re grossly intertwined. Screw it, go with it champ. Just spread out the ones you can, and then in years to come you can remove the fused roots and allow the new ones that form over time to become the new root system.

Never give up. But don’t get frustrated and just go “bugger it, I’m angry and now I’m it’s gonna cut off all the crappy cross cross roots and backwards facing roots, and remove the one that looks like my grandmothers arthritic hand”. …. Be patient :)
I’ve been there before, I can assure you. When I was younger I would get impatient and try to make the root system look perfect on my first attempt, and generally I would kill the material because of it. Just try to remember that the tree often grows new roots from the base with Aussie natives. Just give it time. You can keep the long crappy roots too… I usually allow them to sit right at the base of the pot on my first repot from nursery material because it allows the tree to recover faster.

We’re all here for you mate, and you can ask us anything.
In a few years time when the material that has survived and begins to take on some nice shapes and it flowers…. You’ll sip a slow beer and thank your perseverance.
Rory
I style Bonsai naturally, just as they would appear in the wild.
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Bonsai: Casuarina Leptospermum Banksia Phebalium Baeckea Melalueca Ficus

Growing Australian natives as Bonsai: viewtopic.php?p=289480#p289480

Buying and repotting Native nursery material: viewtopic.php?f=78&t=30724

Growing tips for Casuarina as Bonsai: viewtopic.php?p=244995#p244995

How to reduce moss from the trunk without damaging the bark: viewtopic.php?p=295227#p295227
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Re: How to grow native pre-bonsai?

Post by TimS »

Mate I’ve killed so many plants much more tolerant of root work than what you’re working with. Hell I’ve killed ficus which are pretty much bomb proof!

The age old axiom goes “if you’re not killing plants then you’re not doing bonsai” Working with cheaper plants makes these lessons less expensive yet still valuable so when you do move to more expensive material you are more likely to succeed with the experience under your belt.

No one is inherently born knowing how to do it, success is a byproduct of practice and practice is founded upon failures. In time the failures become fewer and the successes greater to the point you can virtually guarantee success.

If the roots are total arse biscuits then trying to fix it in one go is probably going to do more harm than good anyway. Do the best you can now, and that will make the next root work in 2 years that little bit easier. That one will make the following one 2 years after a little bit easier etc.

Today you had the first lesson in root work and it will give you valuable knowledge and experience for next time. Even if it may not feel like it has now.

Do not give up! As I say natives can be quite difficult to work roots on, you have set yourself a challenge, and with time and practice you will rise to meet it, then surpass it.

Very good idea to join the clubs, especially if you have a native specific club like we do in Vic here. I’m pretty sure they upload their content as well to be accessed online so numbers around the country can benefit.
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Re: How to grow native pre-bonsai?

Post by Mickeyjaytee »

Thank you both, I mean it. It’s the pep talk I need. I’ve got to stop getting so frustrated so easily 😭 I expect perfection on the first go every time 🤦🏼‍♂️

I think the problem was the roots ARE complete arse biscuits (thanks Tim, I’m adding that one to my vocabulary!) going all over the place and are so densely packed. I don’t quite understand repotting them with soil either nor how much is too much or too little etc etc. Straight to anger!

I’ll take a chill pill and maybe have a crack tomorrow.

I won’t quit! I’ll persist. You guys are great! Thank you.
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Re: How to grow native pre-bonsai?

Post by TimS »

If you can link up with native Bonsai growers near you that will be a big boon to you as, unlike traditional species, the knowledge about them and how they respond to bonsai culture is somewhat less widely available, and in some cases unknown.

Not to discredit the many people across the country who have put years and decades into learning and trialling about them of course, but compared to traditional species like pine, juniper, elm or my own favourite maple it just isn’t as accessible.

Traditional species have been grown for many hundreds of years, every process is known and explained in detail. In comparison natives have been used for bonsai for less than 100 years certainly. The downside is knowledge is less absolute, the up side is native bonsai is really taking off and it’s people like you and other native bonsai enthusiasts trying things out that will be building that knowledge base

Reading online is good, watching YouTube videos can be visually helpful in understanding, but the benefit to working alongside someone at a local club who is experienced and knowledgeable about your tree and how it responds in your climate can’t be underestimated

Oh and you’re most welcome to take ‘arse biscuits’ into your vocabulary :lol:
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