How to grow native pre-bonsai?

[Mickeyjaytee]

Hey everyone,

Mickey again with yet another question, this time in regards to growing pre-bonsai material. I was wondering what is an effective, safe method of growing pre-bonsai?

Currently, I will buy a tube stock plant/tree or smallish nursery stock and plant it into a larger pot, fertilise, sometimes wire, sometimes not and either continue to slip pot or, if I’m short on pots, put it in a large pot trying to replicate placing it in the ground for max growth.

The problems I can see are the roots being quite deep and having issues, for example, with some Leptospermums and their dislike of roots being touched too much. Is this a bad practice? I thought a big pot to get growth rolling then slowly shrink down the pot over time until its roots are small enough to place into a bonsai pot would be a quick way to get there.

I’ve also noticed many users buying nursery stock and styling straight away, removing many branches etc and working from there. Should I be doing this? I was of the mind to let it grow, grow, grow, then tackle design. More branches means a thicker trunk more quickly?

I am a complete beginner so, I’m most likely doing it terribly wrong and would appreciate pointers and methods to use with growing up pre-bonsai stock!

Thank you very much for any help!

[Raging Bull]

Hi Mickey,
Regarding the roots getting to deep; I plant the seedling/small nursery stock into a larger pot and place an old CD underneath. I trim the roots a little and then spread them out evenly to promote good nebari. I make sure that there is sufficient space around the outside of the CD for the spread out roots to grow down lower into the pot. This way excess roots are easily trimmed when re-potting and a good amount of spread out, shallow root mass is retained. If necessary I put a stake through the hole in the CD to support the tree temporarily. I also enlarge the drainage holes in the pot and then sink the pot into the ground so only about 1/4 of the pot is above ground level. It doesn't take long for the roots to grow down into the ground, especially if the tree has been put into a shallower plastic orchid pot. If you use an orchid pot the drainage holes are large enough so they don't have to be enlarged further.
Cheers, Frank.

[Mickeyjaytee]

Thanks for the reply Frank! I don’t have any orchid pots, just the standard tall pots but, I’ll work with what I have. The CD idea is brilliant. I did a heap of repotting yesterday and am tempted to try again with this method. Thanks for the advice, I still do have old CDs laying about so, I’ll take your idea onboard. Cheers mate!

[terryb]

You will probably need to figure out the best way forward with each of the particular species you wish to grow because not all species respond in the same way. You mentioned Leptospermum but then there are the species that bud back well on old wood and those that don't. Each requires a different management strategy. Working with batches of seedlings/tubestock is one way I have handled this. You can try different things simultaneously on different trees and see what works.

Allowing roots to escape into a larger pot or the ground work well for the Mels, Casuarina and Eucalypts I have grown. I would advise getting into the roots at least every two years as their growth and distribution is equally important for the health and above ground structure of your tree. It also help when you want to move into smaller show pots. I have also used colanders successfully for growing on purposes by sinking them into larger pots or the ground (for example viewtopic.php?p=261171#p261171)

The only thing I'll add is that if you want movement, especially low movement, you are going to have to do this right at the beginning. However, don't forget to keep the movement going as the tree grows otherwise you will get straight sections that you will need to deal with at some point.

[TimIAm]

I’ve also noticed many users buying nursery stock and styling straight away and working from there. Should I be doing this? I was of the mind to let it grow, grow, grow, then tackle design.

I think this thread -> does a great job talking about discussing planting in the ground. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=30126&p=293415&hil ... ig#p293415

I encourage you to read through all of the posts in that thread, there's lots of good ifo.

2 extremes to consider:
- Just growing doesn't get you excellent structure (unless you hit the jackpot with the nursery stock you bought)
- A perfectly manicured tiny tree in a pot doesn't grow to be a perfectly manicured thick/large tree within a lifetime

Also, just planting into the ground can exacerbate a common problem with nursery stock (not necessarily bonsai nursery stock as you can get some stock which has already had some work or a chop done early on) is that it typically comes without any taper. Just a long straight main trunk. Another extreme is plants with shrub-like growth where it comes with too many branches, which also will be problematic (structure and targeted growth) if you just put it in the ground for a few years.

So there is a choice to make, sacrifice some existing growth (trunk chop) and potential growth (removing existing branches and leaves which fuel future growth) to establish a base structure. I think that's why you see others working on nursery stock and not just leaving it untouched.

The benefit of sacrificing this future potential growth is not just taper, but also guided growth. If you have a tree with two branches instead of 10, then you will more ramification in those 2 branches if you remove the other 8 earlier on than if you planted it in the ground, let it grow for 3 years and then removed the other 8 branches.

Also like to add this quote from another recent thread by @GavinG

And if you have the choice between safe and interesting, always go interesting.

[Ryceman3]

You will probably need to figure out the best way forward with each of the particular species you wish to grow because not all species respond in the same way. You mentioned Leptospermum but then there are the species that bud back well on old wood and those that don't. Each requires a different management strategy. Working with batches of seedlings/tubestock is one way I have handled this. You can try different things simultaneously on different trees and see what works.

Allowing roots to escape into a larger pot or the ground work well for the Mels, Casuarina and Eucalypts I have grown. I would advise getting into the roots at least every two years as their growth and distribution is equally important for the health and above ground structure of your tree. It also help when you want to move into smaller show pots. I have also used colanders successfully for growing on purposes by sinking them into larger pots or the ground (for example viewtopic.php?p=261171#p261171)

The only thing I'll add is that if you want movement, especially low movement, you are going to have to do this right at the beginning. However, don't forget to keep the movement going as the tree grows otherwise you will get straight sections that you will need to deal with at some point.

This… I agree with all of that.

I am a believer in getting roots sorted early. There is no point to a nicely styled tree that has no chance of being transitioned into a proportional bonsai pot. That goes for any tree… native, exotic whatever. Root development should be at least as high a priority as anything you do up top while you develop.

[Mickeyjaytee]

You will probably need to figure out the best way forward with each of the particular species you wish to grow because not all species respond in the same way. You mentioned Leptospermum but then there are the species that bud back well on old wood and those that don't. Each requires a different management strategy. Working with batches of seedlings/tubestock is one way I have handled this. You can try different things simultaneously on different trees and see what works.

Allowing roots to escape into a larger pot or the ground work well for the Mels, Casuarina and Eucalypts I have grown. I would advise getting into the roots at least every two years as their growth and distribution is equally important for the health and above ground structure of your tree. It also help when you want to move into smaller show pots. I have also used colanders successfully for growing on purposes by sinking them into larger pots or the ground (for example viewtopic.php?p=261171#p261171)

The only thing I'll add is that if you want movement, especially low movement, you are going to have to do this right at the beginning. However, don't forget to keep the movement going as the tree grows otherwise you will get straight sections that you will need to deal with at some point.

This… I agree with all of that.

I am a believer in getting roots sorted early. There is no point to a nicely styled tree that has no chance of being transitioned into a proportional bonsai pot. That goes for any tree… native, exotic whatever. Root development should be at least as high a priority as anything you do up top while you develop.

Thanks for the replies everyone, I appreciate all the insight.

This scares me a little, I haven’t done any root work for any of my pre-bonsais as I don’t know exactly what I’m supposed to do. Any tips would be awesome. Do I assume say, if I bought nursery stock to give the roots a trim to help keep them compact and continue to do so over time every now and then?

I have so much to learn and answers create more questions for me.

[Sno]

The one thing I wish I understood the most when I first started out was ‘ start with the roots’ . Tube stock is cheap so is stuff you propagate yourself so if you lose them early it’s not a big deal . One wayward root or crossed root or similar can wreck all the effort and ‘ time ‘ you put into a tree .
If you arrange the roots from the start , iron out the kinks etc you may lose a few trees but the time you save is worth it .
I grow all my young stock in nursery flats (about a dollar each ) and when they outgrow them they go into plastic garden sieves ( $10 from Bunnings ) and the bigger trees go into old worm farm tubs . They all provide good drainage and are reasonably shallow . I loosely tie the arranged roots to the bottom of the container .

[treeman]

This scares me a little, I haven’t done any root work for any of my pre-bonsais as I don’t know exactly what I’m supposed to do. Any tips would be awesome.

In short, if it is a seedling you first cut the tap root short and replant. Then treat it as a cutting from then on.... If it's a cutting cut all the roots which emanate from the same level on the stem, to balance them . Cut heavy ones more and light ones less. Remove any stray roots growing from above that level (the future nebari) further up the stem. Cut roots directly under the trunk very short and those which are growing at awkward angles off completely or shorten them and remove them next time according to how important they are in sustaining the tree. Try to have the roots emerging at a <> 45 degree angle and plant on a small mound to make shore they are all seated properly. Cover with mix a fair way up the stem so the roots remain buried after watering. I have done many thousands now and that's the way you do it native or not.
One more thing, always cut the roots in such a way that the ''nebari'' remains quite level but the trunk emerges from the ground at an angle - unless you are growing an upright type tree. That usually means the roots on one side of the nebrai are left longer than the ones under the lean of the trunk.
Now I have thoughts that a perfect nebari is undesirable in some cases but that is a whole other story......

[Mickeyjaytee]

Thank you for in-depth replies. Oh boy I have so many plants all of which I never touched the roots. I had no idea

Is there an optimum time for dealing with roots? Is it too late in the season to have a crack now? Also, do I bare root them or not?

I’m going to assume it all very much depends on the species. I’m going to be exceptionally busy. I have so many plants…

Thank you for this info. It’s so valuable and it’s good to catch it early rather than later

[terryb]

Check out the Native viewforum.php?f=6 part of the forum for posts relating to the species you are interested in. Also you may be able to get ideas from how other growers have handled their root work in the "Current contest" threads viewforum.php?f=36

[Rory]

Hi Mickeyjaytee,

I love your enthusiasm.
The best way forward for a beginner with Australian natives is to keep the advice simple:

When you buy nursery stock, I would never slip-pot. If you aren't sure if the material is hardy, then just separate the roots only at the first repot.
You need to separate the roots like Sno says, or you will end up kicking the can down the road and have a mess of crappy roots to deal with years later that is only going to get worse.
I usually bare root everything yes. It is better to find out in the first few months if the material is going to survive or not.
When you first take off the nursery pot, the roots are probably going to be wrapped around and around at the edges, so I usually cut off this outer area and remove the bottom 1/4 or 1/5 of the roots at the bottom so you can start untangling the roots.
DO NOT have your hose on a strong jet setting. Keep the hose on a slower spray setting and gently tease and remove all the old soil.
Untangle the mess of roots. This can be harder and harder depending on how pot bound the roots are. If its a seedling, it will be quick and easy. If its expensive older material, don't rush it ....and spend hours doing it. It will be worth it.
If you were doing a fig then yes you could do a fairly big root removal with confidence. But if you're doing a Leptospermum or root sensitive material, then stick to mainly just separating the roots. You can then cut off roots a year later when the material has recovered from the initial shock.

And one of the best recommendations is to buy material from nurseries that you can easily get your finger deep into the mix. If you can't, and its like concrete, then you know its going to be badly pot-bound and not a great choice to start separating roots. I've turned down amazing looking material before because the mix was concrete, and not worth my effort.

Add washed river sand to the mix when you repot it.

TIE DOWN the material after you've separated the roots and done the first repot. There's nothing worse than a massive gust of wind uprooting the tree, or you snagging it on the hose and ripping it out of the pot when its trying to recover.

Place the material in as much sun as you can give it. Most natives love sun and will thrive on it after a repot.

Try to leave as much foliage on the tree as you can after you've cut the roots off.

And lastly, I strongly recommend reading this thread:

Growing Australian natives as Bonsai:
viewtopic.php?p=289480#p289480

[Promethius]

This is gold, Rory. Cheers!

I really wish I could go back in time to two weeks ago, and leave just a tiny bit more of one particular melaleuca’s roots…

[Ryceman3]

This is gold, Rory. Cheers!

I really wish I could go back in time to two weeks ago, and leave just a tiny bit more of one particular melaleuca’s roots…

Put it in a water tray, if you’ve made it 2 weeks and it is still OK though, it will most likely be fine. They tell you pretty quick if you went too far! A water tray won’t hurt though for a bit.

[Mickeyjaytee]

Thanks for the replies again!

Well I’m a tad deflated I won’t lie. I have so many plants I’ve just potted up thinking I was doing the right thing

Rory, should I still try bare root and sort out the roots for these? Many are quite large bushes now, most about average sized nursery stock but, have had this spring and summer to grow…

Question. When I bare root the plants, do I try fan them out in a horizontal direction around the plant?

Some of the tube stock was grossly root bound too… how can I work with these? Perhaps chop the bottom off and go from there?

Sorry for more questions and thanks again. I’m feeling down about it but, there’s some hope in here somewhere. I’m thinking I’m going to have many losses but, as I said, better now than later on.

I’ll leave as much foliage as I can. Should I refrain from wiring while I do this? How long before I could start the next step?

This info has been invaluable so thanks again.