Quince quiz
- delisea
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Quince quiz
These two wonderful Chinese quince each won a Kokufo award in 2016 (#90).
Tree 1 Tree 2 They were almost definitely field grown for more than a decade and then refined in pots for many years.
At the time Bill Valavanis suggested that Westerners would like one more than the other for a particular reason. He hinted that he liked the other one, and gave his reason. I preferred the tree he thought westerners would like, but not for the reason he suggested. He also thought one might be older than the other.
What do people think? Which do you like? Why? Which one is older? (Don't cheat an look up Bills blog it will spoil the fun)
After seeing these trees I bought some tubes from Shibui which are 1yr into their decades long ground growing journey - thanks Neil!
Cheers,
Symon
Tree 1 Tree 2 They were almost definitely field grown for more than a decade and then refined in pots for many years.
At the time Bill Valavanis suggested that Westerners would like one more than the other for a particular reason. He hinted that he liked the other one, and gave his reason. I preferred the tree he thought westerners would like, but not for the reason he suggested. He also thought one might be older than the other.
What do people think? Which do you like? Why? Which one is older? (Don't cheat an look up Bills blog it will spoil the fun)
After seeing these trees I bought some tubes from Shibui which are 1yr into their decades long ground growing journey - thanks Neil!
Cheers,
Symon
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- Keep Calm and Ramify
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Re: Quince quiz
Delisea,
For me I appreciate the extended lengths on the branch tips in tree #1.
Gives a nice natural [random!] "whispy" effect, instead of relying on a hard lined cut to create silhouette form.
Both trees have great quality, but lately I have been taking more notice to branch tips on trees that have been "preened" for show.
2 x pics below may also help demonstrate more clearly.
For me I appreciate the extended lengths on the branch tips in tree #1.
Gives a nice natural [random!] "whispy" effect, instead of relying on a hard lined cut to create silhouette form.
Both trees have great quality, but lately I have been taking more notice to branch tips on trees that have been "preened" for show.
2 x pics below may also help demonstrate more clearly.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Keep Calm and Ramify on March 17th, 2018, 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- MJL
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Re: Quince quiz
Ok. This amateur will have a crack. I have just done the supermarket shopping and I am about to devour chicken roll... so why not think about these two plants, the quality of which I will never have in my collection.
Tree 1 has more character - it's a grumpy, craggy tree - bent over with the burden of responsibility. Pushed to adapt. Like Kieth Richard's skull, the marks of a life well-lived but with a underlying refinement and joy of still being alive.
Tree 2 has some elegance, if not a little bit too uniform. I prefer the nebari here. I even though it is slimmer than Tree 1, I wonder if it is not older; I'd back tree this tree (Tree 2) for being older even though it is slimmer and somewhat cleaner in appearance.
My preference is Tree 1 by some way actually .... to my mind's eye, Tree 1 has more character, there's more stories to tell about the imperfection of life and the harshness of nature.
I'll shut up now ... I am starting to ramble.
Thanks for the post and I too will be interested in people's thoughts ....which I am sure will be wide and varied.
Tree 1 has more character - it's a grumpy, craggy tree - bent over with the burden of responsibility. Pushed to adapt. Like Kieth Richard's skull, the marks of a life well-lived but with a underlying refinement and joy of still being alive.
Tree 2 has some elegance, if not a little bit too uniform. I prefer the nebari here. I even though it is slimmer than Tree 1, I wonder if it is not older; I'd back tree this tree (Tree 2) for being older even though it is slimmer and somewhat cleaner in appearance.
My preference is Tree 1 by some way actually .... to my mind's eye, Tree 1 has more character, there's more stories to tell about the imperfection of life and the harshness of nature.
I'll shut up now ... I am starting to ramble.
Thanks for the post and I too will be interested in people's thoughts ....which I am sure will be wide and varied.
Last edited by MJL on March 17th, 2018, 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tending bonsai teaches me patience.
- MJL
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Re: Quince quiz
Keep Calm and Ramify wrote: Delisea,
2 x pics below may also help demonstrate more clearly.
and here... I prefer 1979, it reminds me of a parent (the middle, tall element) and the children ... a little wild... at play underneath.
2009 ... it's almost too perfect. Wonderful nonetheless.
Tending bonsai teaches me patience.
- melbrackstone
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Re: Quince quiz
Oh wow....I'll just be happy to get even a quarter of that ramification in mine before I cark it! I like the first one because I feel the second is too regimented...
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Re: Quince quiz
Likewise I’ll take #1. Appeals to me as being more “natural”. Even to the extent of the relative density and branch angles of each side make it seem like the artist has deliberately sought to present the left hand side as the one that faces the sun. Two mighty impressive demonstrations in the mastery of ramification!
One day..... maybe?
One day..... maybe?
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Re: Quince quiz
I'm casting a vote for tree 2. Nice clean lines, good nabari and taper.
Number 1 is great of course, but the inverse taper in a couple of locations is distracting.
Number 1 is great of course, but the inverse taper in a couple of locations is distracting.
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- wrcmad
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Re: Quince quiz
No.2 for me, for much the same reasons - nebari, trunk taper, definition and lines. Branches are nicely tapered and graduated too.
I appreciate the higher standard of craftsmanship, and time required to produce No.2.
I appreciate the higher standard of craftsmanship, and time required to produce No.2.
- treeman
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Re: Quince quiz
To me no comparison. #1 is better in almost every aspect you could name. (except perhaps artificiality)
A better trunk, better branches, better apex, more depth, more natural looking, less formulaic, better ramification, less hurried, better movement.
The only thing not as good as #2 is the nebari but the rest more than makes up for it. The pot of #1 looks not quite wide enough to my eye but no big issue.
I just read Bill's points and I don't agree at all. But as he says everyone sees things differently.
A better trunk, better branches, better apex, more depth, more natural looking, less formulaic, better ramification, less hurried, better movement.
The only thing not as good as #2 is the nebari but the rest more than makes up for it. The pot of #1 looks not quite wide enough to my eye but no big issue.
I just read Bill's points and I don't agree at all. But as he says everyone sees things differently.
Last edited by treeman on March 18th, 2018, 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mike
- melbrackstone
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Re: Quince quiz
I just went and had a closer look at my own little Chinese Quince...and wondering what I've got to do to get that sort of ramification!
- delisea
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Re: Quince quiz
Great insight from everyone who commented. There is no right or wrong answer.
Bill thought you would all like #1 for its thick trunk, but he seemed to prefer #2 for the surface roots and precise, long training.
Personally I am totally taken by #1. It is one of my favourite trees, for its wild look and power. It is very interesting that wrcmd and Watto go for #2 like Bill Valavanis did. Once explained I understand. It does ooze years of precise work, but I scratched my head when I first saw that it was judged at the same level as tree #1.
The big question is, if you still have a couple of decades of tree making in you will you produce a tree like one of these? For most of us, sadly, the answer is no. Why not?
Here is Bills site and commentry on the two trees:
https://valavanisbonsaiblog.com/2016/02 ... -report-2/
I found it extremely interesting that a Chinese quince bonsai was selected from each part of the exhibition for the Kokufu Award. Both are probably seeding grown, first in the field, then completed and refined in a container. Obviously the first one with the fattest trunk was allowed to grow in the ground longer than the second tree. But I’m not certain it is the oldest. Both have been trained with different design feelings. The fat bonsai looks much younger to me and has had less training than the thinner trunk bonsai. The lack of a stable base with surface roots of the larger specimen does not suggest stability. Probably most westerners would prefer the fattest trunk bonsai? Although the beauty of bonsai is a personal view, there are certain basic design elements that are important in all bonsai and many people have decided to skip those and just create interesting bonsai that please them, which is fine on a personal level. I personally feel it IS a good thing that every one does not like the same design, as it would be boring to walk into an exhibition and see all formal upright style Japanese black pine bonsai. We need bonsai of all designs, and in many different styles, and species to present a well balanced bonsai exhibition.
Cheers,
Symon
Bill thought you would all like #1 for its thick trunk, but he seemed to prefer #2 for the surface roots and precise, long training.
Personally I am totally taken by #1. It is one of my favourite trees, for its wild look and power. It is very interesting that wrcmd and Watto go for #2 like Bill Valavanis did. Once explained I understand. It does ooze years of precise work, but I scratched my head when I first saw that it was judged at the same level as tree #1.
The big question is, if you still have a couple of decades of tree making in you will you produce a tree like one of these? For most of us, sadly, the answer is no. Why not?
Here is Bills site and commentry on the two trees:
https://valavanisbonsaiblog.com/2016/02 ... -report-2/
I found it extremely interesting that a Chinese quince bonsai was selected from each part of the exhibition for the Kokufu Award. Both are probably seeding grown, first in the field, then completed and refined in a container. Obviously the first one with the fattest trunk was allowed to grow in the ground longer than the second tree. But I’m not certain it is the oldest. Both have been trained with different design feelings. The fat bonsai looks much younger to me and has had less training than the thinner trunk bonsai. The lack of a stable base with surface roots of the larger specimen does not suggest stability. Probably most westerners would prefer the fattest trunk bonsai? Although the beauty of bonsai is a personal view, there are certain basic design elements that are important in all bonsai and many people have decided to skip those and just create interesting bonsai that please them, which is fine on a personal level. I personally feel it IS a good thing that every one does not like the same design, as it would be boring to walk into an exhibition and see all formal upright style Japanese black pine bonsai. We need bonsai of all designs, and in many different styles, and species to present a well balanced bonsai exhibition.
Cheers,
Symon
- melbrackstone
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Re: Quince quiz
I have to say the thick trunk is the least of the things that attracted me to #1. Lack of nebari was a slight concern....but the overall "treeness" of it was what I liked...
whatever that means
whatever that means
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Re: Quince quiz
I like number one for its natural 'tree-ness' rather than 2 which looks contrived and controlled to me...makes me an Aussie ! Trunk on no1 also seems to have more character. My quinces have far to go!
Thanks for Sharing
SueBee
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SueBee
If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need. Marcus Tullius Cicero
- MJL
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Re: Quince quiz
Thanks for posting Delisea. Yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I think what attracts me to this hobby. Show one tree and let the discussion evolve. It's art... many differing opinions.
The work involved to craft Tree 2 (indeed, both trees I am sure!) is clear but as with my original response, Tree 1 for this little duck. I agree with Melbrackstone and SueBee - there's something about its tree-ness - a slightly wilder, rogue nature ... and same, I was less attracted by the trunk thickness more by it's movement. In short, I am more excited and interested in Tree 2.
Alas, I will never own anything near as good as both but great to see and discuss nonetheless.
Cheers,
MJL
The work involved to craft Tree 2 (indeed, both trees I am sure!) is clear but as with my original response, Tree 1 for this little duck. I agree with Melbrackstone and SueBee - there's something about its tree-ness - a slightly wilder, rogue nature ... and same, I was less attracted by the trunk thickness more by it's movement. In short, I am more excited and interested in Tree 2.
Alas, I will never own anything near as good as both but great to see and discuss nonetheless.
Cheers,
MJL
Tending bonsai teaches me patience.
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Re: Quince quiz
I am just back from Japan and the discussion around "natural" was often discussed. Most Japanese professionals joke that those that prefer "natural" looking bonsai can't wire.
I don't want to start a war, I'm just saying
I don't want to start a war, I'm just saying
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