'Big Blue' Mirai video

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Re: 'Big Blue' Mirai video

Post by Rory »

Watto wrote: May 17th, 2020, 6:30 am I don't understand what Rory is saying, maybe its because I watch Gardening Australia and not Dr Who?
:lol: :tu:

Gardening Australia or 1960’s Star Trek.
You need priorities my friend.

At least we could discuss this over a :beer: next time I see you at least. Not sure when the next bonsai exhibit will be allowed from easing of lockdown restrictions?
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Re: 'Big Blue' Mirai video

Post by one_bonsai »

In some situations "the green helmet" is appropriate for the tee, but I agree in this case it isn't in sync with the rest of the tree. It doesn't help to tell the story of a tree that's had a difficult, tortured life.
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Re: 'Big Blue' Mirai video

Post by wrcmad »

KIRKY wrote: May 16th, 2020, 4:25 pm What difference does it make to visit Japan to see the trees first hand?
Mmmmm... 2 people with hands up.
Why am I not surprised?

It is perfectly acceptable, understandable, and OK, to make your own pursuit of bonsai that of imitation of nature.
That is a very credible and legitimate pursuit, and requires certain skills.
It is also a perfectly acceptable preference in the passion we all here practice in. Every one deserves and is entitled to an opinion.

However, there are many here who seem to (unwittingly or purposefully?) conflate the Japanese bonsai-psyche of "representation", with their own interpretation - that of "imitation".
In this instance, it would seem, more than just sometimes, that it is more convenient and fitting for one's own interests to interpret it as "imitation".
To then assume to be a local authority on the subject of such a foreign culture (without having ever visited or observed first-hand .... WTF?), use it also as a basis for judgement of the quality of Japanese trees (WTF again??), belittle the majority of the art you have invested so heavily in, and then finally dictate to the crowd what is "not an opinion"..... simply belies belief of anyone who has spent time discussing the objectives with the mentioned local Japanese Bonsai practicioners and professionals (masters?).
To then continue to prescribe exactly what trees are supposed to represent, and exactly what trees must reflect to be authentic.... is just plain (I'm trying not to use the word "arrogant" or "naïve")... misguided?

This line of assessment is to completely misunderstand the Japanese thought process, aims, and underlying culture. It is also an attempt (IMHO) to try to reinvent a foreign multi-generational culture and art to suit one's own objectives.

However, if you spend enough time in Japan, (I suggest you try it one day. :beer:) you start to understand their thought process, line of thinking, and general aims..... and it is much less imitation, than artistic representation.

If you don't want to do that - then that's fine too ..... how about just respecting the integrity of this forum, and the art itself, and remember that no one is above the attempts of others in this common pursuit of creating an aesthetic tree.
In short, pull your head in. ;)
I've had a gut-full of the self-proclaimed experts ragging on other's work in the pursuit of a self-ego-boost.
Constructive criticism is welcome, sure.... but I thought this forum was supposed to be about helping and encouraging all others? :)

I make no apologies for loving the Japanese bonsai aesthetics and the reasoning behind it..... it is what first attracted me to this hobby.
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Re: 'Big Blue' Mirai video

Post by TimS »

Really it comes down to tastes as so many things in life do.

In fine art, some people will gravitate towards the old masters, while others worship at the alter of cubism.

In dance there are those who would adore ballet vs those who prefer breakdancing.

In music some would consider anything outside of classical music to be noise, and others who embrace rock or hip hop.

Right and wrong doesn’t come into it, it’s just who we each are. If we all had to listen to the same music or look at the same art, some would love it and some would hate it.

I’m just coming from the angle that the manicured style is over-represented in bonsai worldwide, and I’d like to see more trees breaking away from it. Especially with a piece of material the was as wild as this one was. I don’t want to never see one ever again in my life, because it has its place in bonsai (Japanese shows predominantly).

It’s a nice thought that we should all equally appreciate all styles and species, but much like world peace, it is a somewhat of a pipe dream. Everyone’s heard me dismiss natives before, it’s my own bias due to my own preferences for exotic deciduous trees. Life experiences have taken me down this path, and though I appreciate those who do grow them and the trees they create, I’m just not in that headspace because of the influences from deciduous nature I have had.

Ryan is talented, one of his creations I love is his beech forest, I’m not slamming him or saying he creates boring trees or anything of that nature. My original post was short on context, but I just felt he took something wild and over tamed it. Like a lion at a circus. Interesting to see, but also sad too.

That is of course, personal opinion!
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Re: 'Big Blue' Mirai video

Post by Rory »

wrcmad..... one thing you have to face, is that you cannot have it both ways. :)
By this I mean, most green helmets are actually produced after the exhibitor has said that the tree is like this or that because of nature, and it shows in the rugged texture of this or that and blah blah blah. They often explain that the tree would not be able to grow well in that area because Of strong shade from the foliage above and etc etc. They often explain the reasoning and logic about how the tree should look based on nature time and time again. But the end results are always green helmets and they always miss the mark even after themselves actually using the logic of nature’s growth to try and justify their design.

What I’m saying is..... if you’re wanting to create an artistic representation of the tree that’s fine, but these exhibitionists don’t claim that in their speeches. So.... you can’t have it both ways.

If you want to accurately reflect a tree, which they nearly always say they’re trying to do, then that is what Mike is explaining time and time again, that it’s just always the same result and the exact logic they use to explain their end result is quite the opposite. :wave:

Don’t be angry wrcmad, we all enjoy your thoughts, but just see it differently :beer: :beer:
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Re: 'Big Blue' Mirai video

Post by greg27 »

Rory wrote: May 18th, 2020, 1:20 pm What I’m saying is..... if you’re wanting to create an artistic representation of the tree that’s fine, but these exhibitionists don’t claim that in their speeches. So.... you can’t have it both ways.

If you want to accurately reflect a tree, which they nearly always say they’re trying to do, then that is what Mike is explaining time and time again, that it’s just always the same result and the exact logic they use to explain their end result is quite the opposite. :wave:
That's nailed it for me, and this is even more prominent in Ryan's work because of (what I see as) the amount of pretentious wank he spouts. He goes on about this tree being so ancient and rugged and then produces this perfectly manicured little helmet on the top. Call a spade a spade mate and your work IMO becomes more credible.
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Re: 'Big Blue' Mirai video

Post by treeman »

=wrcmad post_id=278301 time=1589721504 user_id=7001]



However, there are many here who seem to (unwittingly or purposefully?) conflate the Japanese bonsai-psyche of "representation", with their own interpretation - that of "imitation".
In this instance, it would seem, more than just sometimes, that it is more convenient and fitting for one's own interests to interpret it as "imitation"......However, if you spend enough time in Japan, (I suggest you try it one day. :beer:) you start to understand their thought process, line of thinking, and general aims..... and it is much less imitation, than artistic representation..
What a load of nonsense. What prey tell is Ryan's tree or a thousand other green domes trying to represent then?
I have read just about every article by Japanese authors ever ever translated to English and I think I have a pretty good idea what they are trying to represent OR imitate. The vast majority of Japanese bonsai practitioners would be devastated to learn that their tree could or would be considered artificial or unnatural looking. Unfortunately many - but not all, have lost sight of the original idea behind bonsai and that process will be made clear later.

The ''style'' most revered among the true Japanese bonsai masters is the literati (see my avatar) It has inspired Chinese and Japanese poets and painters and later bonsai practitioners. Most contemporary attempts at literati have been so refined as to become a mere semblance of the original concept. The reason for this is obvious. (hopefully then you won't be so hasty to suggest that I could not possibly ''understand the Japanese thought process'')


Are you familiar with the Japanese poet Basho?

''Learn about the pines from the pine, and about bamboo from the bamboo.
Don’t follow in the footsteps of the old poets, seek what they sought.''

Let me translate that just for you. It means that if you are to seek knowledge about ANY subject from the second hand, you will fail to find a true understanding about it.

More..
Let me quote directly from ''Wabi Sabi'' Leonard Koren, because it has breathtakingly obvious parallels with the particular subject being discussed here.....(my caps)

''A major preoccupation of organized tea factions ever since the death of Rikyu's death has been to establish their legitimacy based on their supposed direct links to his true teachings....
''In the process, PERSONAL JUDGEMENT and IMAGINATION have been pretty much wrung out of tea. Even the most MINUTE HAND GESTURES of the ritual have been RIGIDLY PRESCRIBED, ALLEGEDLY deriving unchanged from Rikyu's time.....
''Approximately one hundred years after Rikyu's death, the ''art'' of tea was repositioned into the ''way'' of tea....
'''During this transformation, wabi sabi, the CORE OF SPIRITUAL TEA, WAS REDUCED, SIMPLIFIED AND PACKAGED INTO A DEFINITIVE SET OF RULES AND SAYINGS.....
''wabi sabi was WELL ON IT'S WAY TO BECOMING IT'S OPPOSITE: SLICK, POLISHED AND GORGEOUS.''

Ring any bells? How about that ''thought process'' eh?
If only I would travel to Japan, perhaps I could understand it better!

how about just respecting the integrity of this forum, and the art itself,
So then perhaps you could illuminate for the benefit of us all how I and others have disrespected the integrity of this forum?
As for the integrity of bonsai, I am under no obligation to respect any part of it. I choose to respect whatever aspects I personally consider worthy.
In short, pull your head in. ;)
I've had a gut-full of the self-proclaimed experts ragging on other's work in the pursuit of a self-ego-boost.
I've had a gut-full of seemingly self-appointed psychological profilers who consistently misrepresent comments of others due either to flat out ignorance or a need to grandstand
I make no apologies for loving the Japanese bonsai aesthetics and the reasoning behind it.

All good and well but can I suggest you look a little deeper into the ''reasoning behind it'' before embarrassing yourself with this drivel?
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Re: 'Big Blue' Mirai video

Post by nathan987 »

I suggest a bonsai show down.

You each post a pic of a tree that really encapsulates your view of what you say bonsai should capture. The audience then votes.

Let the trees do the (trash) talking.


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Re: 'Big Blue' Mirai video

Post by wrcmad »

treeman wrote: May 18th, 2020, 2:50 pm All good and well but can I suggest you look a little deeper into the ''reasoning behind it''
You keep reading your wabi sabi, poets, and spiritual tea leaves brother. :whistle:
Although you like to consider yourself one, you are no more an authority on the subject than any of us. ;)
Nothing but a mere keyboard warrior who wants to redefine the art to suite your personal taste, and won't have it any other way. :P
I'm not wasting anymore energy debating your nonsense.
Your acrid criticism of others' work is the biggest source of drivel on this forum, and far removed from the mind-set of even the most amateur bonsai practitioner in Japan.
Have a nice day. :)
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Re: 'Big Blue' Mirai video

Post by wrcmad »

Rory wrote: May 18th, 2020, 1:20 pm Don’t be angry wrcmad, we all enjoy your thoughts, but just see it differently :beer: :beer:
Yeah, I like a difference of opinion... it's what makes this forum a constant source of learning and interest. :)
I just can't tolerate self-righteous belittling and pompous attack on others' work.
I have seen this sort of "clicky" behaviour at a club level, and it does nothing but discourage and intimidate potential newbies, and damages the hobby and it's reputation as a whole.
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Re: 'Big Blue' Mirai video

Post by treeman »

wrcmad wrote: May 18th, 2020, 5:10 pm
Your acrid criticism of others' work is the biggest source of drivel on this forum, and far removed from the mind-set of even the most amateur bonsai practitioner in Japan.
You keep right on walking into it don't you?
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Re: 'Big Blue' Mirai video

Post by wrcmad »

treeman wrote: May 18th, 2020, 5:32 pm You keep right on walking into it don't you?
You're right.
You're absolutely correct, (is that what you need to hear?)
I now bow down to you.... :worship:

:P
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Re: 'Big Blue' Mirai video

Post by treeman »

wrcmad wrote: May 18th, 2020, 5:27 pm
Yeah, I like a difference of opinion...
No, actually you don't. You pretend to understand a subject which in actuality you have thought very little about and hypocritically take refuge in suggesting the commenter is ''self-righteous and belittling'' which more accurately describes yourself.
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Re: 'Big Blue' Mirai video

Post by EdwardH »

Hi Mike

Thanks for posting the quotes as they encapsulate my thoughts exactly.

EdwardH
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Re: 'Big Blue' Mirai video

Post by wrcmad »

treeman wrote: May 18th, 2020, 5:41 pm No, actually you don't. You pretend to understand a subject which in actuality you have thought very little about and hypocritically take refuge in suggesting the commenter is ''self-righteous and belittling'' which more accurately describes yourself.
OMG.
No, I just don't like your style of criticism.
Remember "repulsive"?
But as I've already told you .... you are absolutely right. :wave:
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