trident maple leaf problem

[63pmp]

Bretts

I can only talk from my own experience, and it tells me that the opening poster may have oxygen deficiency problems, as Mojo pointed out, due to poor potting mix. As usual, whenever we share a thread, I have specificaly taken care not to say anything criticizing your opinion.

You may well have a peristant fungus specific to Parkes, I cannot deny that, either way, the opening posters problem sounds like oxygen deficiency.

I am also very curious about these worms. I've not heard of them before this thread.


Paul

[PinkFlowers]

Here is the problem I'm having with my t. maple. The pictures aren't perfect but you can see the very tips are black and curled over. The tree was repotted about 2 months ago?? It drains really well (too well).





Does this look like a fungal problem or something else?

[63pmp]

Hi Pinkflowers.

You have three options here. It could be worms, in which case follow chippoer5's treatment, thats the easiest option. Let us know if you get worms and photos please.

It could be overwatering, as well as a combination of things. What sort of pot is it in? Could you tell us the height, or rather the depth of the pot ? What have you applied to the tree; fertiliser, seasol, superthrive etc? How often are you watering? Try this to see if your medium is holding lots of water. Water it as usual, wait for it to stop dripping, then tilt the pot upright to about 60 degrees. Does water drain out of the bottom of the pot, or over the edge? If so, you have a water issue. Simple fix is to tilt the pot lengthways to about 45 degrees after watering for about 20 minutes (stick a smaller pot under the edge to hold it up). Then see what happens, it will take about a month to come good if that is the problem.

Third option is its a fungus, in which case prepare yourself for a lifetime of spraying. Check any of Brett's threads about best way to spray.

Personally I'd try chipper5's treatment (it won't hurt) wait a while and see what happens, then try tilting the pot and only watering when bottom of pot is almost dry, not the top.

Good luck

Paul.

[Bretts]

Sorry to say PF this looks exactly like the issue.
The same as any pest or disease the health/vigor of the tree will be a big factor on how well it copes with such an attack. I have found with this issue that is a VERY important factor. Some trees will recover on thier own. Some will really struggle and even die.
I would put yours in the later category. The reason I think it is in real trouble is that from the pictures there does not seem to be many active buds/branches.
Where normally a tough trident would hardly skip a beat to having most of it's roots and branches cut off I have found that the tree needs the "imidiate" (Sure there is a more technical term) energy that the leaves, even the damaged ones provide, to fight this fungus.
Like I said I can only lead a horse to water, but I have dealt with this issue over a wide range of situations and a wide range of collections in NSW so I do believe I have a good understanding of what is going on and what can be done but it is obviously your choice which way you want to go.
The tree will not be using much water due to the limited leaf area so if you have it in a free draining mix that is a great start but it would definitely be an advantage (as Paul suggests) to tip the pot at an angle to improve drainage even more.
Leaf surface area is your Number 1 weapon here. Do not defoliate. Do not remove even the most damaged leaves. Any green on the most damaged leaf is producing energy. Put the tree in as much sun as you feel comfortable with. This is a hard thing to do when the leaves look like they are burning but it is not the sun causing this and the most energy those leaves can produce the better.
As an example I am in a hot area and leave many stock tridents in full sun all Summer with minimal leaf burn but you may not be comfortable with this so just get it in as much sun as you do feel comfortable with. The fungus thrives in humid conditions so that is to be avoided as best as possible.
There is a chance the tree will recover on it's own from there with any decent fertiliser regime, I would recommend chemical fert so there is no delay in the tree getting nutrients. Seasol definitely won't hurt on a regular basis (Once a week or at least once every two weeks) at about 25ml per 9L. It could be worth trying a couple of strong doses at about 100ml per 9L to get the roots going but as this may reduce leaf growth in favour of root growth it is just a little of a gamble.
Bravo has given me exceptional results but It is what I class as a nasty chemical being a possible carcinogen (but these days what isn't ) and hard to get hold off in Australia only being sold in large quantities for commercial use.
I do have some Bravo that I could part with but honestly it is a pain in the but to organise and probably better value from what I can see of yours to just replace the tree. (Just being honest)
But there are some extra things you could also try in treatment that will not hurt and may help. Kocide Blue extra seemed to help some but any good quality fungicide would be worth a try like mancozeb (which I have but have not tried yet) or yates anti rot which is a very non-toxic treatment but did not seem to help much when I tried it.

I had considered that trees affected with this may be affected forever but recent reading leads me to believe that it may take several years to be eradicated so it is up to you how much effort you want to spend on getting this tree right when similar stock should be able to be purchased for under $50 probably $20.
Don't mean to offend just trying to be honest.
I am glad I have persisted with mine even if it is only for the experience I have gatherd.

[PinkFlowers]

Thanks muchly for the great advice guys.
The pot is about 7 cms deep??
I have the plant soaking in some seasol atm, I thought it had some leaf burn so tonight I put it in a shadier spot but I'll move it into full sun in the morning.
I thought you weren't meant to fertilise sick trees??? What commercial fertiliser would you suggest? I know it's not a brilliant tree, but I was given it for my 21st and it kinda has a special spot for me.

[chipper5]

Hi everyone,

I was having a look at the photos above and Bretts link and my problem seems to have been slighty different. Just going off the original description the problems sounded the same, but having a look at the pics they are slightly different. Unfortunately I've been through all my photos and I don't have one of the tree while it was sick. But the difference was the black parts of the leaves was the whole leaf of the very tip of the branch. Just the new growth seemed to be affected at the very tip of each branch and went black shortly after emerging. The internodes were tiny- about 5mm as the tree was trying to put out as many new leaves as possible. But all the other leaves on the tree were fine, it just wasn't growing.

Sorry about the misunderstanding, I haven't seen a trident with this fungal problem before so I just thought it was the same problem as mine,

I'll keep an eye out for the worms every time I re-pot and i'll take some photos and be sure to post them up!

Here are some pics of the branches I've since pruned off- showing the small internodes.

Chipper5

[Paulneill]

chipper
i was playing around in the garden today and remembered i still had the bottom third of the root ball i had removed from my trident when i re-potted it last week in an effort to stop my problem . i got the removed root ball that was still damp underneath and put it in a bucket and right enough there were some little white worms i only saw about 5 of them floating on the water surface wiggling about they were 3 or 4 mil long with tentacles on both ends. I tried to take a pic but my camera is shari and they are too small Also my tree has the same thing as u describe close inter-nodes leaves all bunched close together. I will post pictures of my tree after this. but i reckon we are getting somewhere . these worms could come in handy for inducing short inter-nodes lol.

[Bretts]

Hi PF
I understand the sentimental value, I almost added that clause.
Fertilising sick trees is a little controversial for some but I believe those that suggest a normal fertiliser regime will never harm a tree. We want the tree to grow and ensuring it has the nutrients to do that is a plus. You suggested that you have a very free draining mix so I felt comfortable recommending a chemical fert. If your soil was a very organic one then it may be safer just to let it use the nutrients there for now.
The main thing is we need to take the oath of a doctor. First do no harm. Any mistakes here will be the fastest demise of the tree.
So first only do what you are sure will do no harm. In that you should stick to what you are comfortable with in caring for this tree. Don't do anything too out of the ordinary to what you usually do. I can't be there to take everything into account so don't take unnecessary risks. Only do what you are comfortable doing in normal practice of keeping your trees healthy. Jumping to someone else's care regime may cause more trouble than it is worth with a tree that has no margin for error.
So don't stick the tree in full sun unless you are comfortable with that. Keep in mind that lots of sun is beneficial and do what you feel comfortable with to accomplish that.
Any good quality fertiliser will do but I would lean towards chemical as it will make the nutrients available now. The general purpose Miracle Grow or Thrive comes to mind but again try not to veer to far from what you know keeps your trees healthy.
I prefer to just water the seasol through in this instance as soaking the tree in water may not be a great idea as the soil will most probably stay wet for longer than we like anyway.
Only a small thing but always try to think how you can keep the soil at the right moisture content as well as being able to water enough to get good FRESH air to the roots.
By you saying it drains too fast It leaves me hopeful that will not be a great issue but something to keep in mind.

[Paulneill]

I also fully submerged the tree but i didn't have any thing big enough for the pot to fit in so i used a plastic bag and kept it under a running tap the bag had some holes in it so it ended up constantly flushing through but i kept it submerged .also because i re potted it any worms that were left in the core would have had there work cut out to make it up the pot to the surface so i didn't see any that time. i did this for about 12 min hopefully that was long enough to kill them . i am confident now that this is my problem especially with the shot inter-node similarity also when i re-potted there were plenty of large root circling the pot and the root ball was dence but the fine feeder roots in the core were few and far between . like alpineart said submerging trees every now and again it good to make sure there are no pests in the pot and flush and salt build up . i will be doing this now with all my trees every now and again .

[Bretts]

Hi everyone,

I was having a look at the photos above and Bretts link and my problem seems to have been slighty different. Just going off the original description the problems sounded the same, but having a look at the pics they are slightly different. Unfortunately I've been through all my photos and I don't have one of the tree while it was sick. But the difference was the black parts of the leaves was the whole leaf of the very tip of the branch. Just the new growth seemed to be affected at the very tip of each branch and went black shortly after emerging. The internodes were tiny- about 5mm as the tree was trying to put out as many new leaves as possible. But all the other leaves on the tree were fine, it just wasn't growing.

Sorry about the misunderstanding, I haven't seen a trident with this fungal problem before so I just thought it was the same problem as mine,

I'll keep an eye out for the worms every time I re-pot and i'll take some photos and be sure to post them up!

Here are some pics of the branches I've since pruned off- showing the small internodes.

Chipper5

Hey Chipper. No need to apologise it can be very confusing working out this shari. The short inter nodal growth is very reminiscent of what I saw on mine. I felt very sorry for the poor buggers at times as they where obviosly trying very hard to get some growth but the leaves just kept getting knocked back. I think the hawthorn in my thread shows this the best but it was not limited to that tree.
Yours and Paulneill's issues seem so much like what I have seen that I am not convinced it is a separate issue. I just re-read your posts and all I can figure is that the worms may be a supplementary issue here. Whether one allowed the other or visa versa who knows. Maybe the worms where holding the tree back from overcoming the fungus or the fungus weakened the tree allowing the worms or they have no link at all? I do see you are both from Sydney so maybe these worms are about there at the moment. I would love to know what they are they sound awful. Hang on surely they would not be termites or some other ant type creature?
Just did a google search and think probably not
but here are a few other possibilities,
Fungus gnat
pot worms
springtail

Fungus gnat sounds most likely, often in a wet soil.
These may have weakened the plant but I really do think the curling of the leaves and such may have been the same issue others have faced as a fungus. This would make sense to me that the tree was able to get over the fungus after this weakening (by the worms) was removed.
There has been something troubling me in understanding this Fungus as systemic and not the rust type fungus we usually think of that I may finally have some answers too.
Might put that into words tomorrow.
for you guy's

[PinkFlowers]

Thanks Bretts, I'm just going to put it back in it's normal spot which gets great morning sun on is a bit more shaded in the arvo. I'm a tad worried about how much the soil is drying out, it has no tray under it atm, perhaps I could find something suitable and it might help? And start watering it morning and night I think. I've been giving it a spray every night but that hasn't helped much I don't think. And I'll pop into the nursery tomorrow and ask about a fertilizer.
I do have a chemical for my azalea for lace bugs. It's in a bottle in a red box and starts with r (brain just died). Would that help at all or not?

[Paulneill]

hey Chipper,

Was there any root damage when you inspected your trident?

Be interesting to know what sort of worms they were, nematode aren't visible to the eye, curious as to what they might be.

Paul

I have been researching nematode and there are hundreds of different types of these things so it is still possible

[Bretts]

Thanks Bretts, I'm just going to put it back in it's normal spot which gets great morning sun on is a bit more shaded in the arvo. I'm a tad worried about how much the soil is drying out, it has no tray under it atm, perhaps I could find something suitable and it might help? And start watering it morning and night I think. I've been giving it a spray every night but that hasn't helped much I don't think. And I'll pop into the nursery tomorrow and ask about a fertilizer.
I do have a chemical for my azalea for lace bugs. It's in a bottle in a red box and starts with r (brain just died). Would that help at all or not?

If the pot is drying out before the end of the day that is promising as it suggests a healthy enviroment for the roots. I would try to aviod watering the tree too late in the day though. You could try some spag moss on the surface as this is a very safe way of extending the time before watering and it is even possible that the antibacterial healing properties of spag moss will help the tree. Tridents don't nind drying out a little so as long as there is some miosture left by the time the sun goes down it should be good. Just don't sleep in
If you are keen you can get up early, water the tree, then give it another water just before you leave for the day.
I would not recomend a water tray as fungus loves humidity.
If all that fails then you will just have to give it some more water as early in the evening as possible but aviod wetting the leaves.
If you don't see any lace bug then I can't say I would treat for them. Just to clarify, I did realise later last night the other guys suggested soaking the tree in seasol which had them discover the worms. I did not mean to contradict this advice as a one off but feel that soaking as a habit may not be a great idea as it would concern me that we may water log the tree but from what you say about your soil that really does not seem to be an issue.

I often see when bravo is recomended to treat a fungus they also list mancozeb. As I stated I have not tried this but I am thinking it may well be a very good option. I am pretty sure it would not cause any damage to your tree and is worth a try as it is pretty easy to get hold of. It would be great if another member has excperience using this on deciduous trees in leaf
I have some mancozeb here and although I am not keen on swaping or combining it with my current treatment I can spray some on a healthy trident to make sure it does not do any damage. Hmm I do have one other little stock tree affected that I would be happy to swap treatnment for the exercise. Although I have a bad feeling I left it sitting in the growing area after I spayed bravo and can't remember watering it latley

I am over due for a spray of confidor but the bloody wind has picked up again this evening. It looks like I gota do that in the morning
Might go look for this little trident

[Bretts]

hey Chipper,

Was there any root damage when you inspected your trident?

Be interesting to know what sort of worms they were, nematode aren't visible to the eye, curious as to what they might be.

Paul

I have been researching nematode and there are hundreds of different types of these things so it is still possible

I did have a bit of a look at nematodes and although they are thought of as microscopic there are very large ones as well so can't rule your worms out as being nematodes but just didn't get many hits for that in google.
Did you look at the three I listed to see if they look anything like what you saw?

Fungus gnat
pot worms
springtail

[Dario]

Hi Guys, don't want to side-track this thread but I thought I would share my experience...last spring I found around ten or so chinese elm 1 year old seedlings that had self sown under a mature tree. I collected them, bare rooted them and potted them up. At the time I had run out of potting mix (as the seedlings were an unexpected find), and I noticed the neighbours had a half full bag out front of their place so I stupidly used it.
Anyway a few months down the track the seedlings were struggling and I kept noticing silver slug trails (but very thin trails) on the soils surface the morning after watering the previous day.
It had me stumped because I searched everywhere and could never find the slugs.It kept happening so I decided to soak the pots in a tub of water, and sure enough after about twenty mins or so these thin worm type things? that were up to two centimeters long and one to two ml wide appeared on the soil surface. They were translucent, silver and strange looking. It was a warm day with a strong hot breeze, and I collected a few with tweezers and put them on a warm tile on the ground and they dried out quickly and died.
Ayway, I repotted and ditched all of the contaminated soil and the seedlings pulled through. I learnt my lesson and will never be so stupid again and only use potting mix that is sealed in a bag etc.
Sorry but I never took photos, they sure looked strange though.
I realise this info doesn't help at all, but just wanted to say that I have seen something similar. I hope your tridents pull through!
Cheers, Dario.