Japanese Red Pine Advanced Techniques

[NBPCA]

Hi all,

a lot gets written about black pines but not so much info about red pines except they behave differently to Black pines.

Does anyone have the ultimate techniques for red pines?

Discuss.

Grant

[Jow]

I treat them the same as Black pines.

This is how i was taught when i was in japan and I saw the results that confirm that it works well.

I tend to leave a couple of extra pairs of needles on my reds but then some years i do not and they don't really miss a beat.

In a nut shell I;

spring: let them grow and feed them strongly. I snap candles in half that are growing markedly stronger than the majority and then leave the rest.

Around Xmas (Early to mid Dec); I candle prune. Remove all new growth except for that of the very weak shoots.

Autumn: I remove the previous years needles and some of this years.

Rinse repeat.

Obviously that is a very basic description but it gives you the idea. I get short needles and good back-budding from the above methods.

[kcpoole]

Nice summary Jow and sorta kinda KISS principal?

Ken

[NBPCA]

I treat them the same as Black pines.

This is how i was taught when i was in japan and I saw the results that confirm that it works well.

I tend to leave a couple of extra pairs of needles on my reds but then some years i do not and they don't really miss a beat.

In a nut shell I;

spring: let them grow and feed them strongly. I snap candles in half that are growing markedly stronger than the majority and then leave the rest.

Around Xmas (Early to mid Dec); I candle prune. Remove all new growth except for that of the very weak shoots.

Autumn: I remove the previous years needles and some of this years.

Rinse repeat.

Obviously that is a very basic description but it gives you the idea. I get short needles and good back-budding from the above methods.

thanks Jow,

Total or near total removal of candles (Black Pine) in early spring is now being widely practised here. Was this done in Japan and with Red pine or not?

Cheers,

Grant

[Jow]

I dont know what you mean by early spring candle removal. I remove in early summer. Ie early to mid December. When i say candle prune i mean total removal of new growth unless you wish for a particular bud to extend to form a longer branch. There are a few ways to candle prune but i tend to use the cut medium growth first then wait 7-10 days and then cut strong candles (i dont cut weak candles). This seems the best way to even growth out in unballanced trees. You can use the cut in one go method where you leave different length stubs but i find this works best once the pine is fairly ballanced in growth to begin with.

Prior to candle pruning i let candles grow unrestricted to build strength in the tree. The only time i break candles during this time is if i get a few that are far out of ballance with those of the rest of the tree. For example if one or two extend 6 inches while the rest are 2 inches long.

Red pines were treated almost exactly like black pines in Japan.

Give me a call if you'd like to discuss further as its hard to explain in text without writing an essay (which i dont have time to do today)

[Jow]

Nice summary Jow and sorta kinda KISS principal?

Ken

I am guessing that 'Kiss' means 'keep it simple stupid'. If that is the case then it is a pretty correct obeservation. Pine care is simple, but you just have to wade through the mis-information and adjust slightly for your local climate. The actual techniques are dead easy but require you to stick fairly ridgidly to the calandar.

[Scott Roxburgh]

Grant,

100% agree with Joe.

I treat mine the same as JBP, although they seem to be a little weaker in the regrowth after decandling? So maybe a little earlier decandle in Canberra.
Same as JBP though, if tree health is starting to decline leave it a year.

I decandled a JRP at the same time as JBP with Boon, but a few more needles may be left on in some areas, not a huge difference though.

Although my JRP is not that advanced, I have not noticed that it has needed candle snapping? JBP has though.

[NBPCA]

Hi all,

Certainly in Canberra we have a shorter growing season in duration and strength(cooler nights in summer due to altitude of 600mtrs here) so I agree we probably need to start earlier.

A couple of good growers in Melb, Canberrra and Bris are doing the total removal of about 80-90% of candles now (September)rather than waiting till November/December. This is done gradually over about a 4 week period. This seems to work very well with JBP and Radiata that I have seen but I have not seen it done with Red pines; either from the growers not having any red pines or just opting to treat them differently. So I was wondering if anyone has done this with their red pines?

Salvatore Liporace said only candle snapping for Reds in europe but that could be due to a much shorter growing season for him.

Grant

[Scott Roxburgh]

That is interesting, how far along do the candles/buds get before they are removed?

I assume the 10%-20% not removed are weak buds?

Are they still cut off straight across the candle?

Is any stub left?

Weakest to strongest over the 4 weeks?

I assume large trees are still done first and small trees done last?

It would be great to see in action...

[Jow]

Hi Grant,

If you do removal of candles now you will not get any needle reduction from that process. Using early pruning you will solely rely on foliage mass to reduce needle length. You will get back budding and a new flush of growth but it will often come with long internodes and long needles. I have found in my own garden, that the back budding you do get is ofter single strong buds rather than the 2+ you would get at teh cut site if you were to prune in December. I have an example in my garden that i did in November last year and its growth is not any where near as good as that of those done later in the season. I will see if i have time to take some pics tonight.

Most of the pine growers i know here in Melbourne candle prune their black pines around December.

Radiatas are a whole different kettle of fish and should not be use to compare Balck/red techniques as they respond differently. In their case i do prune candles in spring as the growth begins to harden. That said i am still not entirely satisfied with my results on them yet so i see their techniques as very much a work in progress still.

http://nichigobonsai.com/tag/radiata/ <---- That link is a collection of posts from my blog where i have been trying to further understand the growth and associated techniques for growing Radiatas. Not sure if i am any further to getting a effective technique like those for black pines, but who knows.

Hope that is a help.

[NBPCA]

Yes it all helps,

Thanks

[Scott Roxburgh]

Grant,

I am very interested in exploring the spring decandling technique further...

Is it much different to what Joe has written above?

Do you decandle more than once a year, Spring then Autumn?

Is there much growth from the buds prior to decandling?

I assume the 10%-20% not removed are weak buds?

Are they still cut off straight across the candle? Is any stub left?

Weakest to strongest over the 4 weeks?

How do you stop the new growth/candles getting too large?

Thanks,
Scott.

[Jow]

Hi Grant,

I got a few moments before work this morning to take a couple of pics. There were two trees i photographed.

The first i candle pruned in early spring. I did this because i thought that it would give the seccond flush of growth almost a whole season to get strong which in turn would mean better growth at the detriment of needle length. This kind of happened but where i would usually get two buds at a cut site i had in many places on the tree, only one new bud. Also the seccond flush was strong but this resulted in long necks on the new candles.

Spring-candling-numbered.jpg

Above photo key:
1. Spring candle cut location
2. New growth with long needleless neck
3. This years spring candles

And then you compare the growth with the seccond tree i photographed. This tree was done using the same technique but in December.

Dec-candling-numbers.jpg

Above photo key:
1. Spring candle cut location
2. New growth with short neck
3. This years spring candles

As you can see from the above images the neck length (and therefore the compactness of the foliage) is much shorter. You may also notice from the pic that needle length is quite different.

I plucked a couple of needles from each of the trees. these are not the longest or shortest from the trees as i tried to get a needle with a length that represented the average for the canopy.

needle-comp-numbers.jpg

1. Needle from the growth that energed from the spring candle cutting.
2. Needle from the growth that energed from the December candle cutting.

What do i take from this? Well i will be doing all my candle pruning in december from now on. Cutting early produces longer necks which in the long run means a less dense canopy. The december pruning not only produces a better flush of new growth but due to the reduced growing time the new growth has in the season, the needles are also much shorter. Win win.

Hope that helps.

Joe.

[Jow]

Oh and i forgot to mention above that both trees were black pines but the same applies to reds.

[NBPCA]

Hi Jow,

Thanks for that. In Canberra I have found that trimming back in December is too late as we don't have a long enough season afterwards to get normal regrowth and the resulting growth is variable depending on the season. Last year the growth at the top of the tree was a lot shorter than lower down for instance on one of my trees at home. So thats why I am enquiring into other peoples experiences.

The guys doing the near total removal of candles in spring aren't aggressive feeders and it seems to work fine for them with nice compact growth resulting and short needles..

I am also trialing the Boon technique of letting the spring growth elongate and then removal later; here probably early November rather than December.

More ways to skin a cat etc.

I am a fairly aggressive feeder and am upping my fertilising to every week at suggested dose; ie same dose but increased frequency.

Anyhow I am taking photos and will keep information coming.

Your info has been very useful especially that where you were in Japan they treat the two pines; Black and Red the same.

Cheers,

Grant