Acer seedlings

[craigw60]

Hi Squzzy, I have been growing pentaphyllum for years(not as bonsai), its a small tree with a slightly weeping habit and is much hardier than the palmatums. Its the last maple to shed its leaves in autumn. There is an old one in a friends garden which self seeds freely. I would question its suitability for bonsai due to the long internodes and very pendulous habit but no harm in giving it a try.
Craigw

[Luke308]

I managed to keep one alive for a little over a year. My references say it sets plenty of seed but most of it is not viable so getting seedlings is difficult and its supposed to be hard to get cuttings to root. Good luck!

The place where I got mine from has a parent tree which is huge ( prob a 2 story house in height) which seeds prolifically, in fact he has to round-up most of them as they are growing in between pots like weeds!!! I believe the ones I got are from cuttings, but I could be wrong.

[squizzy]

These seedling got a light prune and a wire early summer before I went away for a few weeks. On returning some of them had wire cut so it was quickly removed. regardless of what tree they are from I love the deeply cut leaves and I hope they continue to develope these characteristics over the coming years when the are in a forest setting.

Alpine. Sorry I couldnt get more info on the growth method the nursery had used before I purchased them but if it helps I am treating them equally as bad as I treat the rest of my trees and they dont seem to mind.

Cheers

Squizz

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[squizzy]

A year or so later and the maples are shooting again.

I am after opinions on the origin of these seedlings.

If you where told you had to guess what tree they came from what would you say.

They have a distinct deeply cut leaf and they are as red as my atropuroreum.

I cannot see them likely being from a straight palmatum but I am unsure what else they may be from.

Please see new growth on photos attached

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Squizz

[shibui]

Your seedlings are still Japanese maple seedlings. The leaf shape can indicate which group their heritage lies with but there has been so much crossing and selecting that no one can say more than that. There are over 1000 named varieties of Acer palmatum in cultivation and many more random seedlings that have not been named.

The species Acer palmatum is divided into 3 subspecies and a number of groups.
Acer palmatum ssp palmatum, - usually upright growing shrubs or small trees. Leaves are 5-7 lobed and relatively small. Samaras (seed) are small.
Acer palmatum ssp amoenum, -upright growing shrubs or small trees but usually less densely branched and have larger leaves. Leaves are 7-9 lobed divided to half the leaf blade or more. Samaras are larger 4-5 cm and often beautifully coloured.
Acer palmatum ssp matsumurae - Mostly large shrubs, rarely trees. Leaves are large, deeply divided, usually cleft almost to the base and margins are serrate or incised. Samaras are about 4cm long, often colourful.
In addition each of these subspecies has 3 subgroups - leaves green or green with reddish margins; leaves purple-red or purple fading to dark green; leaves variegated.

The characteristics of the leaves on yours probably put it into Group 3b CJ & DM VanGelderen - Maples for Gardens

[squizzy]

Thanks for that info shibui,

I think by that explaination you would be right. Have you got some examples of what might fall into that category. Would say elegans be in the same category but different leaf colour so 3a or would you suggest its more like a bloodgood or even straight atropurporeum.

Also shibui have you seen bewleys red which I have seen on the internet but not in the flesh. It is another upright from Australia supposedly. I came across it on a new site

http://www.mendocinomaples.com/index.ph ... 08&start=3

wouldnt mind getting a hold of one

Squizz

[shibui]

Squizzy,
Just had a flick through van gelderen.
A.palmatum group 3b includes 'Trompenberg', 'Beni Kagami' (I have one called 'Kagami' but have not been able to find reference to that name so someone has probably shortened it at one stage. Might give mine its full name back now I have found it.) and others I have not heard of - Akegarasu', Burgundy Lace, Inazuma, Ogon Sarasa, Sherwood Flame, Toshi, etc.

They have 'Elegans' in 2a ie amoemum subspecies.

'Bloodgood', 'Shin Deshojo' and 'Atropurpureum' are in 1b. When i look at the pics some of those leaves are also divided almost to the base as well so leaf shape alone may not be definitive.

Have not seen 'Bewley's Red' but that is not surprising given we are a bit isolated here and I do not get out all that much.

[squizzy]

I am excited about some of the colours I have in these seedlings particurly a darker purple one. The leaves all seem to be keeping that deeply divided charactoristic which I also find desireable. They will no longer be a group as there is too much variation in the leaves for it to look uniform but I will continue to develope them as a long term project as individual trees. I have uploaded some photos to show where they are at now and some of the distinct variation in them.

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Cheers

Squizz

[shibui]

Squiz,
The variation you are noticing is typical of the variable genetics of seedlings and points to these being seed grown trees. Sometimes the variability is harder to pick but is still hidden in the genes for bark, hardiness, autumn colour, pest or disease resistance, cold/ heat hardiness , etc. This is why no seed grown plant should ever be given the parent name, no matter how close it resembles the parent. If you only had 1 of these it would be tempting to try to match it to a named cultivar then start propagating and distributing it. This is how we get a group of closely related palnts all with the same name which is a real problem in the nursery industry. My advice - If you are not CERTAIN, never attribute a name to the variety That will save a lot of problems later.

Despite the lack of a variety name ( remember you are perfectly entitled to give each and every one of these seedlings a new variety name -one could be Acer palmatum 'Squizzy'?????) these are still great looking trees and could easily produce great bonsai or garden trees.

[squizzy]

Hi shibui

Thanks for the response again. You are the maple master. I def don't want to tag these as any of the existing named varieties. I was just more interested in what is likely to be their origin. It is less important now anyhow. I think the dark purple one I have shown had some exceptional qualities but lacks the vigour of some of the others. I will attempt a graft but to be honest I am crap with maples. It takes a lot of skill and probably even more luck with their microscopic cambium layer. Hard to get the two to meet. Do you know if I might have more success with an approach graft?

Squizz