My first Pinus thunbergii (JBP) - advice please

[Luke308]

Hi guys and girls, I went to a newly open bonsai nursery today, and lets just say I'm glad I didn't take hundreds of dollars with me or I would have bought home many nice trees. Anyway, the owner had some very nice examples of Pinus Thunbergii, Pinus Radiata which weren't for sale, but they were very nice indeed!! He had a few JBP that were for sale and I bought the cheapest one which was $40. I know it is not worthy of a bonsai pot as yet, but that is how it was, but I really liked the trunk line of it. I am far from confident with pines, but for $40 I couldn't pass it up so my question is what now? I am open to any suggestions (particularly to do with the wound on the trunk, and what to do with the top of the trunk that has been cut.)

Anyway here it is as I purchased it.....

Japanes black pine 18.2.12 001.jpg

Japanes black pine 18.2.12 003.jpg

Japanes black pine 18.2.12 004.jpg

Japanes black pine 18.2.12 005.jpg

Japanes black pine 18.2.12 006.jpg

Japanes black pine 18.2.12 007.jpg

Japanes black pine 18.2.12 010.jpg

[Bretts]

Nice little start. I would just let it grow for now. At least until the winter but possibly better left untouched until next December when I would decandle the top vigorous bud thus increasing the vigor of the lower buds before removing the top section altogether in the following Winter.

You could try removing the top this Winter but that may slow the tree down somewhat and actually take longer to get somewhere.
Good luck.

[Luke308]

Thanks bretts, I appreciate your reply. Like I said I am unsure about pines, so can you or anyone else for that matter tell me when would be the best time to pot this tree into a grow box?? Apparently it was re-potted 6 months ago, and it is in a premium potting mix. I would much prefer a more open mix myself, and would like to give it room to grow. Is it too risky to attempt to slip-pot it?
Thanks again
Luke

[Bretts]

It is a good point I would not be happy with growing this on in this soil and pot. Partly why I suggested slower is better as it does not look like it is powering on.

You can slip pot at any time with minimal disturbance to the roots. So yes if you are keen I would slip it out of the pot and stuff it into a nice tall nursery pot. This will improve the drainage a great deal without changing the soil.
Then come Autumn or spring you can tease away some of the soil and plant back into a nice tall nursery pot with even better soil. Get it powering on ready to be directed at your will.

[Luke308]

It is a good point I would not be happy with growing this on in this soil and pot. Partly why I suggested slower is better as it does not look like it is powering on.

You can slip pot at any time with minimal disturbance to the roots. So yes if you are keen I would slip it out of the pot and stuff it into a nice tall nursery pot. This will improve the drainage a great deal without changing the soil.
Then come Autumn or spring you can tease away some of the soil and plant back into a nice tall nursery pot with even better soil. Get it powering on ready to be directed at your will.

I have only ever slip potted from a plastic nursery pot b4, any advice on the safest way to slip-pot out of a bonsai pot? should I break the pot away from it? Also I was thinking more along the lines of a foam fruit n veg container as a grow box rather than a deep pot. I want the roots to grow laterally not vertically don't I?

Can anyone suggest a suitable substrate for pines? I have been using 60% diatomite, 30% zeolite, and 10% pine bark mini nuggets (orchard quality) for my maples and junipers. Most of my figs are in a mix of very similar, but some are in 40/40/20 cow dung/potting mix/3mm quartz. Would the Diatomite mix be suitable or should I add more pine bark minis?
Thanks
Luke

[anttal63]

Nice start Luke !!! If it were mine, i would get more wire on it and compress it a litle more or you will find these bends will smooth out as it grows and reaches for sun. I then would slip pot pot into a larger deeper garden pot or poly box, and just let it go gangbusters for 2 or 3 years and really fatten her up. Then put things back into check and perhaps start the process again. For me this is a 10 to 15 year project, so that you end up with substantial girth, taper and interest in your trunk. In this quest you have plenty time refine and sort out roots. Now you just want explosive growth if this is the direction you wish to take. Good luck enjoy your journey what ever it may be.

[Bretts]

Hi Luke,
No need to break the bonsai pot. Just check under the pot for any wires that may be tying the tree in and cut them away. Then get a knife and slip it in between the soil and pot making your way around and work the root ball out of the pot. I would say it will lift out very easily the main concern will be keeping the root ball intact as it comes out and you push it into the nursery pot. The more solid the root ball the better shape we are in. Each root ball will be different. Say it is a compact root ball then pushing and shoving it into another pot will do no harm. If it is a loose root ball then care must be taken to lose as little soil as possible but will not need to be forced into the new pot much as some soil will fall away.

Care must be taken with pines to keep them growing strong as it takes some time to get them going again or you may even lose them. A nursery pot is the healthiest container we can use. They have excellent drainage. You will do much better developing a great root system on a very healthy pine in a deep pot than you will on a just healthy pine in a flat pot.
I don't think it is a great idea to wire and compress the trunk at the moment as this could set the tree back some when the plan should be to get strong growth. If you want to compress the trunk curves more then I think that is best left at least until next season when the tree is growing strong and will recover quicker.

As I said when he tree is in great health I would decandle the top bud in Late December. This will get the bottom buds growing strong which then gives many possibilities for the future.

There are as many ways to grow Pines as there is to skin a cat. I like the idea of an exposed root style for yours. Not fine roots but roots that look like an extension of the trunk. Ray Nesci showed us how he does this to amazing affect. I will endeavour to do a tutorial of this come Autumn.

Here is one I have been growing from seed for about 4 years now. The base was wired and twisted, the wire never removed which helped to swell the base.
It has never been trunk chopped or a single piece cut off. This Winter I will now remove the top of the tree and use one of the lower buds to create a new apex.

pine 001.jpg

pine 003.jpg

[shibui]

If this pine has only been in the pot for 6 months it is highly unlikely there will be enough roots to hold the mix together though it will depend on what sort of job the last rootpruning was. Pines don't grow really dense, fine mats of roots so it is almost certain that a lot of the mix will fall off the roots when it is moved but don't panic it should still tolerate being potted up into a larger container and will give you the chance to organise some roots to fit your future objectives. The real objective of slip potting is to try not to damage the growing roots while you are making the changeover rather than retaining all the potting mix.
I believe that there is also an increasing number of growers who prefer late summer/ autumn repotting for pines.

[Luke308]

If this pine has only been in the pot for 6 months it is highly unlikely there will be enough roots to hold the mix together though it will depend on what sort of job the last rootpruning was. Pines don't grow really dense, fine mats of roots so it is almost certain that a lot of the mix will fall off the roots when it is moved but don't panic it should still tolerate being potted up into a larger container and will give you the chance to organise some roots to fit your future objectives. The real objective of slip potting is to try not to damage the growing roots while you are making the changeover rather than retaining all the potting mix.
I believe that there is also an increasing number of growers who prefer late summer/ autumn repotting for pines.

Thanks shibui, I thought that may be the case, that it is unlikely to have grown many roots hence my hesitance thus far. As per you comment on the increasing number of growers preferring late summer/ autumn re-potting, I had only just read that here viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1910 Do you think this could be another case of ask 100 bonsai growers what potting mix to use and you'll get 100 different answers?? (edit..... Just came across this which answers my question viewtopic.php?f=131&t=9702 )

Just out of interest though.....what mix/substrate do people use for their black pines? Do you use much organic in your mix or purely inorganic?
Thanks again,
Luke

[daiviet_nguyen]

Hi Luke,

For me, if the plastic pot is 20 cm or larger, I usually lay a layer or two of 2 cm (yes, 20 mm) of reddish/brownish scoria at the bottom, then a layer of of 1 cm reddish/brownish still. Then usually an equal mixture of red scoria, pine bark (for orchid), and diatomite, these are around 4 to 5 mm, this mixture fills up for a few cm. Then the same mixture but smaller size of around 2 to 3 mm. I have a Japanese-made sieve with three screens of different sizes .

For proper bonsai pots, I do not use the 2 cm ones, and possibly not 1 cm either. For certain pines, I do not use 2 to 3 mm when I feel that the pines are sufficiently old -- I keep close eye on the moisture of these pots.

I found that this works for me. Also scoria, pine bark and diatomite are not always in equal portions. It is hard to measure, especially when we re-used (re-sieve) the medium.

Over times, we will arrive at something we like to use. I have gone through at least three modifications, and this is the "formula" I have been using the longest. A friend, who also runs a small bonsai nursery, his mix horrifies me!! But his trees are in extremely good health. I bought some from him, bare roots use my mix, they are still healthy.

So I think this is another case of 100 people, 100 answers too...

I hope it helps a little.

[Luke308]

Thanks Daiviet,

I think scoria for the bottom drainage section is a good idea. Do you get that from you local hardware store, or is it more of a specialty like a landscape business? Also do wash this prior to use? The other question I have which you other others may help with, is zeolite okay to use in my mix with pines with diatomite, pine bark minis, and the scoria?? My understanding it zeolite absorbs nutrients and allows plant to access them as needed so I can't see it doing any harm, but if someone could confirm that for me that would be great

Thanks again to everyone who has replied thus far

Luke

[Bretts]

Scorio at the bottom will actually hinder drainage much like using a shorter pot.

[daiviet_nguyen]

Hi Luke,

I did not have to buy the 20 mm brown scoria, the previous owners left a little bit around the house.



I believe it is the surface stuff that was discussed in the this thread here viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10853;"
it is harder than the red one.

The 10 mm, top right in photo above, is imported from China, sold by Bunnings. The bags also has mixtures of smaller sizes too.

The three smaller sizes at the bottom are also courtesy of the previous owners, they are much softer than the brown ones. I can crush them to dust with the sole of my left Rossi boot. (I have not tried with the right yet.)



I sieved them to remove all the dust, I do not wash them. But there is no harm in washing them.

Hi Brett,

I do not feel that is the case, but if we are not comfortable with it, then we find some other alternatives.

It is a pity that we could no longer get diatomite in bigger sizes.

Best regards.

[Bretts]

Not sure if you have read this before Daiviet but it is a very interesting article that shows how a so called drainage layer does little more than make a pot shorter thus it actually hinders the water to air ratio that is beneficially to plants/trees.

http://bonsaiwonders-art.blogspot.com.a ... ayers.html
It is not about what type of medium is used but the size and uniformity.

Moving this tree with the original soil into a taller pot will be enough to create a healthy environment for the roots. But if you and others suggest that changing the soil is also necessary then I will not argue with that opinion.

[daiviet_nguyen]

Hi Brett,

...
But if you and others suggest that changing the soil is also necessary then I will not argue with that opinion.

Thank you for bring this point up. I was not thinking about the subtlety of what I have written above:

No. I am not suggesting that at all. Luke was asking what other people are using, I was just describing what I am using. But I could see why you mention the point above

I have not read or seen that article before. I like it and I will digest it later. Thanks Brett.

Best regards.