Himalayan Cedar

[marcela]

Hi all,sorry just worked out how to put photos up ,any comments welcome have been re-wiring when ever I get a chance so here's the result.sorry the photos aren't are very clear.

[time8theuniverse]

Nice looking tree. I like your choice in pot and pot colour too.

[alpineart]

Hi Marcela , cedars swell significantly where bar branches are present and it hard to rectify this . The foliage will certainly fill the voids , so i would remove and open up the trunk a bit . Wire mark on any part of the trunk or branches remains and enhances over the years . I have an Atlas cedar that was marked with a single wire , it now has a couple scars 30mm long and 20mm wide . Its on the front of the tree and continues to enlarge as time goes by . The tree is about 17 years old so its definitely a permanent scar .

Not being bean pole straight it could have some more movement placed into the trunk to help reduce the voids if you chose to remove the bar branches . Removing all the needles above and below the branches will aid in ramification in the right direction .These and Atlas cedars get bigger and bigger every year so you have to plan for a 10 year tree which will be well ramified and congested if too many close branches are left on the trunk . food for thought , All in all i like this tree , I like most cedars .

Cheers Alpineart

[FatMingsBonsai]

I like it the way it is in the second pic but have to agree with Alpine that the trunk should slowly be tweaked for movement

Enjoy,

Han.

[Bretts]

This tree reminds me of VERY early pics of trees that are now considerd bonsai of great importance in Japan.
Nice work. This will be one for the grand kids

[marcela]

Hi guys,thanks for your comments,cheers Alpineart for your guidance as yet I don't have any wires cutting in but I'am keeping a close eye on it,it sure is a working progress and have thought about a little more movement on the trunk and will probably do so when I can get the branches set where I want them,but of course as all cedars do they will only spring back on my face when I decide to remove the wire .Thanks Bretts I only wish this tree will one day look something like we see in the books.

[bodhidharma]

Hi Marcela, these are a long term project as Bretts stated. I like it like it is but i would be wiring the secondary branching sooner rather than later as they take Sooooo long to set. also dont forget your end tipping which it looks like it needs.

[Mojo Moyogi]

Marcella,
Your preliminary styling is ok and is headed in the right direction, but what this tree needs is TRUNK MASS and that is something it will never find in a bonsai pot at this early stage. Ground, grow box or even a seed tray would be better than it's current pot from a development perspective.

Cheers,
Mojo

[GavinG]

Mojo, you da MAN!

Harumph. Like he said. Given the tree that you have, you have styled it gracefully. In ten years' time, when the trunk is not a lot thicker, you will ruefully remember. Put it into a grow box, grow it LONG to get thickness, then cut HARD. Then do the same again. Then do the same again. Measure the trunk now, and after a year of strong, long growth, look back - and look forward, to see where you want it to be. You won't get the thickness with pinched-back refinement - that's a different, later stage.

Look at Scott Martin's trident-over-rock pictures - they took 40 years! to get thick and strong. They didn't get that way in a bonsai pot. That comes later.

Best of luck. You have a graceful eye.

Gavin

[Bretts]

You guys might need to check back on the history of some of Japans most famous trees that never left a bonsai pot.

[Mojo Moyogi]

You guys might need to check back on the history of some of Japans most famous trees that never left a bonsai pot.

Really Brett, you mean the ones that had trunks built on the mountain side, then went into a bonsai pot. Or the decades old stunted Ezo-matsu that Yoshimura and Kato dug from the most inhospitable of places in Hokkaido? Thanks for the latest history lesson and all the other design tidbits you sling my way. Kind thanks once again for guiding me on how best to advise others, that dare I say it have less than 50 years to spend crafting a young tree at snails pace.

As a self confessed follower of Peter Adams, you must recall that in the majority of his works he explains the concepts of:
1. Development of Mass (trunk and primary branch building) followed by,
2. Form and Structure (construction of secondary branching) and finally,
3. Refinement of Image (ramification of tertiary twigs).

Do you disagree with this concept that describes the logical pathway from immature plant material to bonsai?
Have you indeed successfully taken an immature tree through the design process and stages of building to become a bonsai?
Are you advising that Marcella take the slowest possible course of action to develop this tree for no discernible benefit other than the inspiration of an old tree in Japan that was built long before modern bonsai techniques and nursery production existed?

Brett there is no doubting that you are the most prolific member of this forum, as such on occasions, you have provided thought provoking and worthwhile discussion, I and no doubt others would like to see more of that.

Marcella, I was once advised by a bonsai grower of 40 years that the single best way for me to improve my trees was to lock all my bonsai pots in a cupboard for 5 years. My assessment of your tree was an honest response to your invitation that "any comments are welcome", if I have overstepped my welcome in that regard, then I apologise.

Cheers,
Mojo

[Bretts]

No Mojo,
I mean sticks in pots that are now revered masterpieces.

There are many ways to skin a cat and all paths have their advantages and disadvantages. I just use the word never more sparingly than yourself.

[treeman]

I'm of the view that you can do both -in pot AND in ground ( if you have the room) For every tree I have in a pot to fuss over and enjoy I have several others powering along in the ground for future tackling. As others have said, you need to have something to look at and play with NOW while you plan for the future.

[Mojo Moyogi]

I'm of the view that you can do both -in pot AND in ground ( if you have the room) For every tree I have in a pot to fuss over and enjoy I have several others powering along in the ground for future tackling. As others have said, you need to have something to look at and play with NOW while you plan for the future.

Treeman, I don't entirely disagree with the concept of developing trees in pots as well as in the ground, shohin bonsai for instance are prepared in containers from an early stage. My issue is that in Australia we continually see bonsai that are potted in an undeveloped state, grossly overpotted and bonsai that have overly heavy branches with very little structure or refinement. I've been as guilty as anyone at all 3 in the past. We need to get our heads around the need to grow roots, trunk bases, trunks, primary, secondary and then tertiary branches.

Cheers,
Mojo

[marcela]

Hi Guys,thanks for all your responses,yes I must admit that I do get a little impatient hence potting my trees up as soon as I'm reasonably happy with the way they look.I don't have the garden space to grow in ground and it's not easy for me to have grow boxes around the place as my dogs would have a field day.I bought this tree probably 4 years ago and in that time it has grown and thickened considerably.All opinions are appreciated after all how are we all to advance and grow as artist and growers.I"m happy with the branch development I guess the photos I posted didn't do it justice.
Thanks,Marcela