Raising maples for root stock.

[Andrew F]

Gday guys,

Following this thread: http://ausbonsai.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10484

I'v devised a strategy of *hopefully raising some Dehujo seeds for the sake of bonsai.

Going off of my other thread im going to need to also raise Acer palmtum for root stock.

So heres my plan:

1. Stratify both the normal and atropurpureum seed in April, so when they are ready to be planted after 90 days *hopefully the temp is cool enough for them to adjust.

2. Nurture and grow them on for the 2 years that they can stand on their own roots.

3. Graft to root stock.


I've never grown from seed or grafted so this is all theory and 90% doesn't go hand in hand with practice, so any tips you guys have on stratifying-raising seed-feeding seedlings-grafting will be appreciated greatly.

Thank you.

[Andrew F]

Finally got around to making a start on the stratifying process today,

#1. Soaking the seed in warm water:

The regular Acer Palmatum from Ken [thanks again mate] this will be for root stock:



Good blood from the U.K:



Deshojo:



lol i ordered 35 and ended up with 5 after customs had their way but left me this?




This is them soaking:



Tomorrow i have the job of Bagging them up with the mixture of seeding raising sand and coco peat at a mix of 65-35.

I'll also be trialing a few different mixes for the regular Maples.

[squizzy]

good start there vs

Shame about having half your seeds stolen.

only advise I can remeber is to stratify in the fridge and I think someone once told me to go from the top of the fridge to the bottom of the fridge eg getting slowly cooler and then reverse back to the top. I say you experiment with your own theory there but. Think about what might happen naturally in the process.

I know of a tree A. palmatum that just naturally produces seedlings all over the place under the tree so I am lucky enough to just have to pluck them out when I have the time.

Looking forward to seeing more.

Squizz

[Andrew F]

good start there vs

Shame about having half your seeds stolen.

only advise I can remeber is to stratify in the fridge and I think someone once told me to go from the top of the fridge to the bottom of the fridge eg getting slowly cooler and then reverse back to the top. I say you experiment with your own theory there but. Think about what might happen naturally in the process.

I know of a tree A. palmatum that just naturally produces seedlings all over the place under the tree so I am lucky enough to just have to pluck them out when I have the time.

Looking forward to seeing more.

Squizz

Gday Squizz,

I wouldnt say stolen lol probably batch testing for bugs because they came from overseas.

Thats a good point about circulating them around the fridge, ill be testing the temp on each shelf now, thanks mate.

[kcpoole]

Be cool to see how you go with these
and those Palmatum seeds do look familiar

Ken

[Mojo Moyogi]

Hi VSL,
Sorry to be the bearer of less than favourable news, but Acer palmatum 'Deshojo' is a cold to cool climate plant which I struggled with while living in Melbourne and I'd be extremely surprised if you were successful growing the tree in Port Stephens. Which doesn't make having one any less desirable, I know.

Cheers,
Mojo

[Andrew F]

Be cool to see how you go with these
and those Palmatum seeds do look familiar

Ken

Thanks again Ken, i can tell they are super fresh because they leeched alot of tannins into the water. So im gonna have maple tea

Hi VSL,
Sorry to be the bearer of less than favourable news, but Acer palmatum 'Deshojo' is a cold to cool climate plant which I struggled with while living in Melbourne and I'd be extremely surprised if you were successful growing the tree in Port Stephens. Which doesn't make having one any less desirable, I know.

Cheers,
Mojo

Hi Mojo,

From what ive read some people have had mixed results in temperate climates such as ours, not disagreeing with you though, if anything it'll be a learning experience. Seed was only a few bob so it wont be too much of a loss.

Thanks.

[Luke308]

In regards to the customs issue, I have received over 300 maple seeds from the UK. I checked with Australian quarantine and all Acer varieties are allowed in except one cultivar (I can't remember which). So I find it strange (or unlucky) that you lost seed in the process of mailing them here. I got 100 the first batch, then over 200 the second time all up I have seed from 18 different cultivars of maple. I know they will not be true to their parent tree which is fine, but I was recently told that cultivars more often than not produce sterile seed. So I may not succeed with any of them growing. I will be stratifying them shortly also, however I will be using crushed charcoal and peat as the stratifying medium as the charcoal helps prevent rotting and fungus. I have been told to check the seeds weekly and open the bag (or container) they are in weekly to allow air circulation also.

Good luck with your seeds VS, I have my for you

[Brad75]

Hi All,

I remember my neighbour had a Japanese Maple and it produced stacks of seedlings on the ground at the right time of the year. I took a dozen or so to grow as bonsai but they all seemed the get collar rot and die. Does anyone think that the way the maples were stratified was the reason for collar rot or are they both unrelated.

Also back on topic. It is possible that your seeds were taken by customs becasue of they way they were packed not the cultivar that they are.

Anyhoo cheers all,

Brad75.

[Andrew F]

In regards to the customs issue, I have received over 300 maple seeds from the UK. I checked with Australian quarantine and all Acer varieties are allowed in except one cultivar (I can't remember which). So I find it strange (or unlucky) that you lost seed in the process of mailing them here. I got 100 the first batch, then over 200 the second time all up I have seed from 18 different cultivars of maple. I know they will not be true to their parent tree which is fine, but I was recently told that cultivars more often than not produce sterile seed. So I may not succeed with any of them growing. I will be stratifying them shortly also, however I will be using crushed charcoal and peat as the stratifying medium as the charcoal helps prevent rotting and fungus. I have been told to check the seeds weekly and open the bag (or container) they are in weekly to allow air circulation also.

Good luck with your seeds VS, I have my for you

Gday Luke,

That sheds new light on the subject i contacted the seller they reassured me the whole package was sent, doesnt really matter at this point. Its all just a test.
Thanks for telling me about charcoal, i too might mix a bit into my current mix.

Good luck as well, and ill be inboxing you if i have any drama lol

Hi All,

I remember my neighbour had a Japanese Maple and it produced stacks of seedlings on the ground at the right time of the year. I took a dozen or so to grow as bonsai but they all seemed the get collar rot and die. Does anyone think that the way the maples were stratified was the reason for collar rot or are they both unrelated.

Also back on topic. It is possible that your seeds were taken by customs becasue of they way they were packed not the cultivar that they are.

Anyhoo cheers all,

Brad75.

What time of year was it Brad?

[Brad75]

Hi Velvetsicklid,

I remember that the seedlings emerged a couple of times in early August; around August 6 or 7 and the seedlings grew into saplings then starters with 5mm thick trunks over 3 years. My family had one maple each as I recall. Then the decision was made to plant 7 of the trees onto some slate we aquired to make a group forest planting. That was in Early spring of the second year in 1995, on August 5. The trees planted for the group planting all developed collar rot within two weeks. The maple tree next door continued to throw out seedlings that seemed quite healthy until the neighbour Dwayne took to them with a wipper snipper.

I think the collar rot came from the soil mix I used. It was fine sifted like seed raising mix and didn't drain very well unlike the soil I used for the 10 inch pots. That was 3 to 5 mm pine bark and coarse sand plus crushed rock (multi-coloured top dressing stuff).

Anyhoo that's the story.

Cheers,

Brad Jackson.

[Andrew F]

Imagine what it would have been like now 7 years later....thats a shame.

[shibui]

I sometimes have trouble with Japanese maples turning black at ground level. Not sure this is classic collar rot but it does appear to be fungal. At this stage it appears to be worse with plants that have had roots cut then kept wet during cool weather which would tally with Brad's fine soil mix (holding too much water). Hardly ever happens to trees repotted late or kept on the dry side. Still loooking for ideas on what and how to beat it.

Sorry to be the bearer of less than favourable news, but Acer palmatum 'Deshojo' is a cold to cool climate plant which I struggled with while living in Melbourne and I'd be extremely surprised if you were successful growing the tree in Port Stephens. Which doesn't make having one any less desirable, I know.

Both Mojo and VS should be aware that any plants that come from these seeds will NOT be Deshjo. They will be unique and new cultivars with at least one parent being deshojo. As such each will have a completely new set of genes and may or may not behsave like the (one) parent!!!!

I know they will not be true to their parent tree which is fine, but I was recently told that cultivars more often than not produce sterile seed. So I may not succeed with any of them growing.

well done Luke for pointing out that seedlings are not the same as the parent. However I'd say that all Japanese maples are cultivars - types chosen for cultivation. All the seed i have tried has been viable while fresh (stored AP seed is known to enter deep dormancy and can be difficult to germinate). The weeping dissectum varieties have low germination rates but will still produce up to 20% seedlings. Purchased seed may or may not be fresh so germination rates are a lottery.
Getting them up is just the first hurdle, grafting is a different ballgame again with AP.
Good luck VS

[Luke308]

I had a thought earlier that the reason I received all my seeds and Velvet didn't is because all of my seeds were clearly labelled with their full botanical name. both envelopes I received had been sliced open and re-sealed with packaging tape, but I received all the seed I ordered plus a few bonus seeds the seller had left over stock of.

I am wondering if their is any benefit to stratifying seeds in the fridge for a while, then moving them to the freezer for a month or two to try an mimic UKs cold winters? Just as thought as all my seeds came from UK so their "seasonal clock" would be out of whack, and I dont think 4 degrees celsius will be enough to awake them from dormancy (if that's what you call it)

The one cultivar I am hoping will germinate mostly is Acer Shirasawanum "autumn moon" which is similar to a full moon maple. Off the top of my head some of the other seeds came from parent cultivars such as Acer palmatum "momoiro koyasan", Acer pensylvanicum (moosewood), Acer Truncatum, Acer palmatum "kinram" , Acer palmatum "iroha momiji", Acer p. "purpureum", Acer p. "hogyoku", Acer p. griseum, Acer Davidii (snake bark maple).

I will start a new thread when I begin the stratifying process.

In regards to collar rot, the thread where I read about the charcoal for stratification also mentions using "garlic tea" to prevent fungus post germination. The thread can be found here http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t8531 ... from-seeds

[squizzy]

Hi vs

It seems you are getting a lot of info and theories from people with limited experience ( myself included). If you are after advise from someone with more experience I would get shibui to chime in for you here. I can't speak for others but my advice was simply regurgitated from someone else from years back. There may be new and innovative ways to stratofy these days. Maybe even ways that haven't been discovered which you may come up with yourself.

I just wanted to make sure you weren't going to put your seeds in peat and charcoal in the top of the fridge and the bottom of the fridge and the freezer and treat them with other concoctions. You know what I mean?

Looking forward to some great results from you and Luke on this one. I love maples with a passion my wife can't understand.

Squizz