JBP - To cone, or not to cone?

[dansai]

These Japanese Black Pines were purchased as part of a group of plants I got for my birthday as mentioned here viewtopic.php?f=131&t=12452&start=15#p131422

This one was labelled Pinus thunbergii

JBP 1.jpg

And its cones...

JBP 2.jpg

This one was labelled Pinus thunbergii Yatsabusa

JBP 3.jpg

And it's cones.

JBP 4.jpg

The first one has a base that could make a good bonsai, the second is grafted and lanky and I was considering planting in the ground along with another bought the day after for future seed.

So, should I leave the current cones on and collect the seed?
How long do the cones take to mature?

The second one had 3 cones on it when I bought it.....

Yatsabusa cones.jpg

There is some seed in them. Would they be viable?
Any thoughts on the best way to propagate. I've read they don't need stratification, but it produces more even results.

[dansai]

Anyone with info, thoughts, opinions, suggestions,.........

[Damian Bee]

Hi Dan. There is an good book on black pine for Australian conditions by Hoy Leong Kwong called 'Pine Bonsai'.
Also if my memory serves me well, there is an article in issue 21 about growing black pine from seed. I may be incorrect about the issue number.…lil help here…

[Andrew E]

Hi Dan,
Collect the seed and give it a go, but generally the tree needs to be mature for the seed to be viable. How old are the trees? The cones that are in the palm of your hand look very small compared to those found on a mature tree. There may be some seed in them but only a few compared to a mature cone.

I would be planting the yatsubusa in the ground too and growing on for the seed or for a bigger future bonsai , I'm a sucker for the big pines!!
I generally don't let the tree go to cone when it is in the training phase as cone production uses a lot of energy. When the design has been obtained then let one or two cones develop as they do look good on the more finished bonsai.
The seed is still worth a shot though as you just never know

Good luck with them

Andrew

[dansai]

Thanks Damien. I've got Hoy Leong Kwong's book on order for my birthday.
Sorry for my ignorance, but Issue 21 of.......?

Thank you Andrew for your input. I don't know how old the trees are, but the one labelled Yatsabusa (presumably Yatsubusa, which from a little searching is a term for small needled varieties!) is grafted, so age and maturity are a difficult thing to determine. It is in a 200mm pot and about 1m tall and from a nursery where stock seems to have been growing without much attention for some time so who knows?

I'm thinking the yatsubusa and another that looks very similar but labelled just as Pinus thunbergii will go in the ground for seed, and the more compact one in the pictures above may be used as a tree to gain experience with Black Pine. Fortunately I have the space and permanency to allow for planting out.

[shibui]

Hi Dansai,
The cones you have in your hand would have opened and dropped any viable seed last summer. In my experience only unviable seed is left by the time they close again in humid weather.
You can test the seed to see whether it is empty in several ways -1 in water, empty ones float; 2 try to squash them, empty ones crush relatively easily; 3 squash or cut one to see if it is hollow, viable seed has white embryo inside.

I have never got viable seed off a potted tree. Cones do mature but no viable seed in them. you may be lucky though.

If yatubusa produces viable seed the seedlings may not be the same as the parent because it is a sport from normal black pine. seedlings are likely to be as normal black pine.
I believe 'yatsubusa' means 'many buds'. this variety produces lots of buds at each location so growth tends to be shorter, not always shorter needles though.

I'd say Damien is referring to Bonsai Today magazine which has had regular articles about black pine and growing from seed.

[dansai]

Thanks shibui

Will test them tomorrow and post any results.

I am aware of seed not necessarily being true to type, but then all sports come from somewhere. So i suppose grow some, if seed viable, and see what I get.

What about air layers? From it seems some people have limited success, some not at all.

[Woody11]

Hi Dansai

With regards to conifer sports, most dwarf varieties (e.g. JBP Yatsubusa, Thunderhead, Emery's Dwarf) come from "witches brooms". Such sports can come from normal trees having some sort of mutation on a branch etc. Sometimes you see them as weird looking branches on trees. The exact cause of this mutation is subject to much debate amongst horticulturalists, but a viral vector is the main suspect. It's really just a bit like a random mutant cancer on a plant.

To propagate, a portion is of the witches broom is taken and struck as a cutting if the species is permissive of it. The various varieties of junipers are a case in point. Sometimes, grafting is necessary because the roots of cutting-grown stock are too weak or prone to disease etc. I can't think of any conifer varieties which reflect this possibility but many citrus types sit in this category.

By comparison, some species are hard to propagate via cuttings (eg. cedars, pines), hence in the commercial setting, grafting is the usual method of propagation of these cultivars. However, cuttings are possible with low success rates as evidenced by some suppliers overseas selling JBP varieties on their own roots - usually cost more to compensate for the higher failure rate. Air layers of JBPs are another option and other contributors to this forum have posted reports of their success.

Seeds derived from these JBP cultivars generally reflect the wild-type of the species or may even be infertile. Thus growing the cones from your cultivar JBPs are likely to yield standard JBPs. If the opposite were true, most nurserymen would just simply grow the cultivars from seed - after all, it's a hell of alot easier and cheaper than grafting.

Unfortunately the whole situation with JBPs is complicated by that famous chapter in the Bonsai Today Pines book which very erroneously suggested that Mikawa JBPs can be propagated by seed in a true-to-type fashion - a rumour which always shows itself around the place. A quick read of the relevant entry in Peter Tea's bonsai blog however clearly refutes some of the mystery around Mikawa JBPs.

Hope this helps

[dansai]

Thanks woody for your information.

I was aware of reasons for grafting from horticulture studies, but assumed cultivars were selected from seedlings not witches brooms. Anyway, I think i'll plant the yatsubusa and another tall lanky one in the ground for future seed as they have limited potential for Bonsai from what I can gather, unless I can get some good back budding. I have no experience with Black Pines and unfortunately haven't been able to make it to my closest Bonsai club meetings due to other commitments so rely on reading and this forum. The shorter one has some low branches that have produced smaller needles and some branching, so I think there is some good potential there. I think I really need some hands on advice though before I start any major work.