Root prune or airlayer first, or both on new Ash

[Josh]

I went to pick up the Ash I mentioned in a thread recently and came home with 2 They are quite root bound as they are splitting the pots. I was quite surprised to find a lot of small roots and only a couple of big chunky roots. Below is a picture of what I plan to do but my question is how much should I cut the roots at the moment.
A
I'm goning to repot but should I cut out the bigger roots now?
Can I then airlayer this season or should I wait

B
Should I just slip pot them for now and airlayer to reduce the tree size
Then work on the roots when there is less tree above ground.
How much can I cut the roots back???

Any advice please

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If you see something different, please let me know.

[anttal63]

The fact that you are a Victorian and there are heaps of ash out there that are far more interesting than what you have or will airlayer, you gotta ask your self ??? Now please dont take offence I dont mean to be disrespectful but we truly have some rippa Ash stock out there if you take a little time to look and dig. Now thats not to say that you cant go ahead and do what you intend and make good trees out of them in future, it just seems like the long way round.

[Josh]

The fact that you are a Victorian and there are heaps of ash out there that are far more interesting than what you have or will airlayer, you gotta ask your self ??? Now please dont take offence I dont mean to be disrespectful but we truly have some rippa Ash stock out there if you take a little time to look and dig. Now thats not to say that you cant go ahead and do what you intend and make good trees out of them in future, it just seems like the long way round.

Feel free to let me in on where these ash are hiding

[Bougy Fan]

If the pot shape is totally full of roots you can saw off the bottom third and then tease out the remaining roots to see what you have. When doing the root work you want to cut off all the downward growing roots and get a nice radial spread happening. Once it reshoots and it's a bit warmer you can air layer this year. With deciduous trees you only have a once a year window to do root work and you need to do it every year to gradually improve the roots and nebari.

[shibui]

I'm with Ant here. Better to get one good tree out of each than spend longer and maybe get several ordinary trees.
No need to hope for small shoots when you cut off an ash. Shoots will appear all over the remaining trunk when you cut off the top.
If you really want to layer you could root prune now then layer in a few months as Bougy fan says. Just shorten the longer branches when root pruning but leave enough to put the layers on. you can expect all branches to produce new shoots when cut back.

As for where feral ash are in Victoria - lots of roadsides, neglected creek reserves, bushland reserves, vacant blocks, semi neglected urban backyards, etc. If there is a mature tree there will be seedlings somewhere nearby, you just have to know how to recognise them from a distance then keep your eyes open.

[Josh]

Thanks for the replys, This is as much learning and practice as growing good bonsai. I don't plan on these being good trees next year, I plan to have bit of a play to get some knowledge as much as anything. I would rather practice on something like this than a really good tree. They didn't cost me much at all so not to fussed. Just want to see what I can/can't do. Would hate to find out what I can't do on a great trunk
As I have mentioned previously my knowledge of bonsai and growing methods is fairly basic so figure I've got some learning to do and figured this could be a good way to learn.
As for collecting trees I have eyed off several species in the last few weeks. Was planning to find out who owned the blocks and see if I could collect them, only to return 1-2 weeks later and find the blocks totally levelled and units going up, BUGGER. One had a nice pine on it with a real gnarly trunk.
I am never offended by comments, if I was I wouldn't bother asking All comments positive and negative are welcome. I guess now is the challenge to make something special out of these and prove ya wrong

Thanks
Josh

[anttal63]

All good Josh we have all practiced our layers on ordinary trees so that we dont bugger a good tree. Whats even funnier is that 7 yrs ago i grew 200 ash seedlings so i could learn more and prove some people wrong. Well let me tell you that there are certain rewards about that line of thinking but dont discount the fact that there is good material out there to dig for free that will put you in front of the game.

[kcpoole]

Bougy and Shibui have a good plan. Ant may be correct, but we do use what have available. Like he says, learn to idintify the prime material locally but in the meantime use this one to learn from, and maybe give a nice tree or 2 ( Just like he did )

When you do your layers, I will do the top differently to give more taper using the right hand branch and new leader

Ken

[Josh]

Bougy and Shibui have a good plan. Ant may be correct, but we do use what have available. Like he says, learn to idintify the prime material locally but in the meantime use this one to learn from, and maybe give a nice tree or 2 ( Just like he did )

When you do your layers, I will do the top differently to give more taper using the right hand branch and new leader

Ken

Good call ken. That's what I'm after. I need to learn to look beyond what I see to start with. I'm sure I've walked past trees that would be good but didn't see the bonsai in them.

Josh

[kcpoole]

Bougy and Shibui have a good plan. Ant may be correct, but we do use what have available. Like he says, learn to idintify the prime material locally but in the meantime use this one to learn from, and maybe give a nice tree or 2 ( Just like he did )

When you do your layers, I will do the top differently to give more taper using the right hand branch and new leader

Ken

I'm sure I've walked past trees that would be good but didn't see the bonsai in them.

Josh

That is one of the hardest things to learn and can only be gotten with time and experience. Going on Digs or Nursery trips with experienced growers is one of the best ways to learn. Watching Demos from Raw stock is another.
Posting clear photos here like this thread is top notch topo but always remember, it is quite hard to get the "real feeling" of a tree in a photo

Ken

[Dario]

Hi, I agree with what has been said by others...plenty of ash to collect in Melb Not sure about down Mornington Peninsula way though?
Best wishes for layering these trees to practice on with your daughter Hope you guys enjoyed the Waverly show! Unfortunately I couldn't make it
My is to layer just under the V where two branches join (keep one as sacrifice), and layer at a diagonal line instead of horizontal...that way you increase the base taper and also get some angle/movement from ground level when potted up.
You have to think about it a bit more but it can be/is worth it in the long run
When I do this I tilt the tree using wedges so that the diagonal layer now becomes horizontal (just be sure to water tree base properly if you intend to eventually chop down the tree to use base for another bonsai). This works for me and it can increase potential layers that previously were not obviously evident, as well as possibly increasing the potential of the stock to be gained from layering.
I have also used Fly Bri's "skirt method" for layering (can search AB for it) on Ash species to increase basal flare and it has worked really well with this species...although I haven't done it on sections of mature/ fissured bark, only on younger branch sections with smoother bark.
Ash root profusely regardless, but I mix powdered rooting hormone with manuka honey (standard honey I find too runny) and it works well, and "I" feel better for doing it even if not neccessary.
Best of luck, Dario
PS I am happy to locate a few interesting Ash for you to collect for next winter...what sizes are you after? (I am too busy to do it before the end of this winter (sorry), but if you can wait a year will be happy to help).

[Josh]

Hey Dario, thanks heaps for the info. Jasmine and I went to the Mt Waverly bonsai show and I was amazed at her knowledge of trees and styles. Also her ability to talk about possible ways to improve trees. She even explained to her sister how to approach graft a branch onto a trunk to help inprove the tree or start a new leader so I thought this would be good expirience for us both. She is reading heaps so she will probably know more than me soon
Mate any time you going on a dig and need an extra pair of muscles, give us a yell, I can certainly wait till next winter and should have enough practice by then to get some real trees

Josh

[Olivecrazy]

but dont discount the fact that there is good material out there to dig for free that will put you in front of the game.

Have to agree with ant here i was looking for a nice ash an sort i had to drive 40-50km to get to locations that had them , that was until winter came along an it was easy to locate these trees found a good one real close to home . Been told you can flat cut these like olives as long as you got some roots you are all good if there isnt any close by ask at your bonsai club people will know where to find them

[Dario]

Hey Josh it must be great to be able to share your bonsai journey with your daughter and grow together
Your on for next year my man, I will find you a few nice ones for sure
Ash are a great species, good to see you getting stuck into them!
Cheers, Dario.

[Josh]

I cleaned up the trees today ans found a little extra under the soil (which I was hoping for). This is my plan for one of the main trunks. The airlayers ect will be to play with basically but this will be the main tree I'll be aiming for with both trunks. Is this doable or am I dreaming. If I chop the trunk this low without any shoots will it bud up ok.
I have reduced the roots by about a third and cut back the branches I don't think I will need. They now look like a 5 foot stumps with a couple of shoots left on.
Any other suggestions and thankyou for the help so far.
"Edit" forgot the pictures

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nice trunk 2.jpg

Josh