Japanese Red pine cascade

shibui · Post by **shibui** » December 27th, 2012, 3:45 pm

I have a couple of jrps that are getting to the stage I'm ready to show them off. Both started as neglected seedlings, about pencil thickness, from Jim Webb when he was at Wagga Wagga an a member of our Albury Wodonga club. (not sure how long but quite a few years ago)
Here's a few pics showing development of this one.
Its first styling was at a workshop at Beechworth with Budi Stylisto(spelling?) and i was never really happy with the twin pompoms

Red pine leaning.JPG

It started to look a bit weak and spent a couple of years in a larger pot to recover.

Red pine leaning 2010 12b.JPG

In July this year, under Joe's excellent supervision, I pruned off excess and put it into a new pot with a new angle.

Red pine 2012 9 .JPG

By December it had grown prolifically.

Red pine cascade 2012 12 b.JPG

So while decandling I did some more pruning and a few adjustments to the shape

jrp cascade 2012 12 a 1.JPG

I'm still not satisfied with the tree yet. There is still more to do when I get the courage to make the decisions. I'm not sure about the rising branch near the jin on the cascade. It leaves a nice shape between it and the main trunk when viewed from here

jrp cascade 2012 12 a 2.JPG

but runs counter to the descending motion of the rest of the trunk.
The apex is still alittle crowded and has no real 'direction' so i think it also needs some thinning and shaping.
Any ideas and constructive criticism is welcome.

Post by **Bougy Fan** » December 27th, 2012, 6:05 pm

G'Day Neil hope you had a Merry Christmas ! For my eye the tail goes too far away from the trunk and crown. Not sure if you can do anything about it - but it just doesn't look right to me.

Webos · Post by **Webos** » December 27th, 2012, 6:47 pm

I agree with bougfan... I like the idea of getting rid of the crown and throwing the focus onto that gnarly,snakey old trunk.

Jow · Post by **Jow** » December 27th, 2012, 7:08 pm

Hi Neil,

I really like this tree and as you know i think that to cut either head off would be a real waste of very interesting material.

Below is a bad rough sketch done with my left hand as my right is still in a cast.
Not the best drawing but you get the idea.

Again, really nice tree Neil, it just needs a wiring and a bunch of refinement.

Jow · Post by **Jow** » December 27th, 2012, 7:12 pm

Looking at the sketch it could probably also do with having the cascade tilted more into a cascade position.

Jag01 · Post by **Jag01** » December 27th, 2012, 7:28 pm

What the heck!

I have sat back and just watched since joining the forum and been hesitant to make comment on others trees, however I have come to the conclusion that there is little point on being a forum member if I am not going to contribute, so here we go.

I agree with Bougy Fan, that the present crown looks out of place with the general appearance of the tree. It is a pity that the branch that forms the crown was not positioned where the first Jin appears on the trunk, as to me that would be a better balance. As is there, there is way to much trunk length between the crown and the remainder of the foliage. I understand the hesitance to cut that branch which forms the crown off, however in its present position and attitude it adds little to the design. My option would be to either cut it off completely or try and encourage the lower left branch on that trunk to extend as long as possible to fill that gap a little. I would also be tempted to try and get a little more bend at the first bend to lower the line of descending trunk a little more.

I do believe this has the potential to be a lovely tree, however I believe you need to make some brave decisions.

Cheers,

Jeff

Post by **Bougy Fan** » December 27th, 2012, 7:35 pm

I like Joe's sketch - the tree looks much better when it keeps going away and doesn't jink back towards the pot.

miyagiman · Post by **miyagiman** » December 27th, 2012, 7:54 pm

Hi Guys, Would it be practical to tilt the tree some more and then pull the head down so that it becomes part of the style, instead of conflicting. That might also close the distance a little between the head and the cascade. It would be better if I could see the tree from other angles or in the bark, sometimes it is confusing to suggest ideas. Thanks, miyagiman.

bodhidharma · Post by **bodhidharma** » December 28th, 2012, 8:00 am

I like it a lot Neil

I to reckon that you work on with the head where it is. A little raffia and time will yield a result. It needs to grow and develop before the idea of cutting it off comes up. Get it more toward the tail and let the lower branches extend.

anttal63 · Post by **anttal63** » December 28th, 2012, 8:12 am

Great candidate for a really nice Shohin and that is what this material is screaming to be. Sadly i feel that no amount of / not worth the time, raffia or wire, can improve this in any posative way. The foliage is too far away from the focal point, yes it can be brought back by serious bending but you still have the problem of the top head in the wrong place. Do you really want to play disguise's with it ??? If you can get the foliage in close and get rid of the top head it could work however again i think it would make a far better shohin... Good luck what ever you decide but be BRAVE !!!

shibui · Post by **shibui** » December 28th, 2012, 11:39 am

Thanks everyone for the ideas and input. I will consider all of them with the tree in front of me because, as miagiman said -

It would be better if I could see the tree from other angles or in the bark, sometimes it is confusing to suggest ideas.

The 2d pics do not show the real movement and depth in the trunk as it is.

Ant, I'm not sure about a shohin. The current apex is just a stump with quite a few branches growing out in just 2 spots so I feel it would be quite difficult to build a good tree from such a congested mess.

My initial preference is to prune and grow the current apex so it moves more definitely toward the left and see how it looks. It has a couple of branches that may lend themselves to develop a better apex in time.

Thanks again for all the ideas.

Jag01 · Post by **Jag01** » December 28th, 2012, 1:56 pm

Futher to my previous comments, given I am not a fan of the current crown position, I did think at first glance (as someone else has suggested that it would make a lovely shohin) however I suspected you were too attached to the present styling direction of the tree.

Perhaps a compromise? why not air-layer off the lower trunk and form a lovely cascade/semi cascade and then keep the current crown as a shohin.

This would be my direction for this tree.

cheers,

Jeff

Webos · Post by **Webos** » December 28th, 2012, 4:28 pm

I'm thinking something along the lines of this. A simple, lonely tree.

http://bonsaijournal.com/images/desktop ... 1_1152.jpg

GavinG · Post by **GavinG** » December 28th, 2012, 4:37 pm

It's a good tree to think about, thanks for posting.

I can understand your reservations, both with the head and the upward branch at the tail. The head is just too far from the rest of the foliage, and goes off on it's own - unless you can bend it over (or take just one of its branches) grow it long and run it down behind the the bare part of the trunk, it might need to go, in the end.

At the tail, the incurved trunk is very strong to me, but the branch going upward argues against it. That branch could go, or some of the curl-back-inwards trunk could go, but to me, it has to be one or the other.

There's a fine dragon-ish movement in that trunk - it will just take some hard decisions to make the line as strong as it could be.

All the best,

Gavin

anttal63 · Post by **anttal63** » December 28th, 2012, 8:33 pm

Webos wrote:I'm thinking something along the lines of this. A simple, lonely tree.

http://bonsaijournal.com/images/desktop ... 1_1152.jpg

Yes your all over it with this one Webba !!! Nice example !!!

Certainly with some extensive carving the trunk will move into places not imagined previously and serve to tie the foliage back into the trunk.

AusBonsai