No one got ideas on live vein? I am surprised

[Bonbon]

I am always impressed by those Juniper trunk where the Brownish live vein alternating with off-white shari.
What is "live vein" on a juniper trunk? I read those article about trunk work saying: first of all, identify the live veins...........anyone know how to identify and what are they actually?

[Jarrod]

Dont hold me to any of this as i am still learning. I believe a live vein on a juniper or any tree is where the main flow of sap goes. Generally you can see as slightly raised over the other bark. Not all trees have visable viens and most wont have a live view that snakes around the trunk. You have to twist the trunk to get that. or i have heard that wrapping a wire around the trunk and letting it bite in can change the direction of sap flow but i am not sre about this technique as i have not tried it.

Hope i have been just a little bit helpful.

Jarrod

[Bonbon]

I posted this but only one reply and I thank him.
Just quite surprise that this may be a hard topic not many people know about.
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1509

If you know something, please advise

[ketutg]

Live veins are where the sap flow is in the tree. they are formed when deadwood in the form of shari etc force the sap to flow to a particular part of a tree. There's info on sharis and veins on a post in Jows thread viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1307&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30#p12487

It displays and makes you understand that the trunk grows thicker in one direction that is the live vein where the sap flows

[jarryd]

i think bonbon is asking more how to establish them originally on older stock ketug.

i am also pondering this for a new peice of stock i have from what i have observed you can see the live veigns if you look very closely for raised sections in the trunk of the tree some trees older trees for examples have more prominant live veigns. they are easier to find once the old bark has been stripped

[jarryd]

i think bonbon is asking more how to establish them originally on older stock ketug.

i am also pondering this for a new peice of stock i have from what i have observed you can see the live veigns if you look very closely for raised sections in the trunk of the tree some trees older trees for examples have more prominant live veigns. they are easier to find once the old bark has been stripped

[Bonbon]

After reading the two replies and a bit of research, I have the following understanding:

I mistaken "live vein" pre-exist before shari creation. Actually, "live vein" forms after we created shari and the sap got pushed to the remaining living portion of the bark. When we decide where to peel off and creat shari, we do identify and keep the prominent, slightly protruding part of the bark and creat shari at other areas.

So, it is just the prominent, slightly protruding part of a trunk. Live Vein don't pre-exist. They become the "live vein" when we let the stronger, elevated part of the trunk to stay.

Am I right?

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

If you have a tree which has areas of dieback... often the bark will be very dry/falling off - even shrivled looking. Then you can use tools to explore how far those dead areas extend. Myself I use a die grinder to expose the surface of the dead area, as you don't want that bark to hold moisture against the tree and cause rot. As you expose the wood you will find it is very dry and easy to cut, and will not make many burrs like live wood will. You'll know when you are getting close to the edge of the live areas by the appearance of red lines in the tissue of the bark, and the wood just below will be very white compared to the pale yellow of the dried out wood. It is OK if you damage some of this line as you are exposing the dead face of the wood. It'll heal, and it'll let you know where you can go with extending the deadwood. Now if you wish to create a live vein on a tree which is largely alive you need to do it as a process over a long period of time... You don't want to suddenly strip back bark and just leave veins. The sudden dehydration will likely kill the tree. Do it in sections from one year to the next, especially in old material where well established "pipelines" will need to re-route themselves around. You can wrap the trunk with some raffia to help slow the dehydration of the wood if you are worried you took too much off. And it will also help the new healing areas on the vein to clasp the exposed wood rather than just bulging off the surface like a pipe.

I typically use this kind of method on junipers, pine, yew, redwood, etc... If I am not being clear, please ask questions... it's like 2 am (and it's my brithday... woohoo!! ) and I may not be as clear as I normally might. I'm off to bed and I hope this helps.

Kindest regards,

Victrinia

[Steven]

Great post Victrinia! Thanks for sharing your experiences with us.
Best wishes for your birthday also
Regards,
Steven

[kcpoole]

Happy Birthday Miss Vic ( sorry but you will always be that), and thanks for the info
I had no idea

[Jarrod]

Thanks for the information. It is kinda what i thought but you seem to have worded it better.


Happy Birthday Victrinia

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Happy Birthday Miss Vic ( sorry but you will always be that), and thanks for the info
I had no idea

No apologies Kc... I have always been fond of that nick... And am still called it often. Many thanks for the birthday wishes....

Ms. Vic

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Thanks for the information. It is kinda what i thought but you seem to have worded it better.


Happy Birthday Victrinia

Your ideas of flow are very correct... I don't know that I would bother with the constricting technique using wire. It would likely work, but it's unlikely to look very natural. I've never seen it done successfully. Live veining is a process that takes often hundreds of years in a natural inviornment, as stressors slowly kill off portions of the tree.... but the tree finds an equalibrium where it can support itself in that enviornment and the veins thicken and become healthy. It's best to work on a tree which is old enough to have dead wood and some veining already... then you have a better chance of success... On younger material it would be better to create dead faces... hollows... sharis... etc.... than it would to try and have the effect of live veins on young material. The reason most of the trees shown in this thead look so ancient and amazing is that they likely are.

In bonsai half the battle is the material you chose to work with. Anyone given a magnificent old tree, has a strong likelihood of creating something beautiful (especially under guidence with someone who has practiced the art for a time)... so work with old magnificent trees.

Kindest regards,

Victrinia

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Just as a contribution to the discussion... this is a grape I am working on, which has a strong live vein I simply had to uncover. When I removed the bark from the dead areas of the tree, there was this small barely visible area of life running up the one side. But with good care and letting the tree grow a huge extension last year, I was able to beef up that vein, and encourage vigor.

I still have to work on carving the deadwood... but my first goals were to get the tree happy and healthy (it had 5 leaves when I got it two years ago...) and then I put it into a shallow pot this spring. It has responded well because I waited until the tree was ready. Even though it's tied in, I'll wait until this winter to do work on the deadwood, so that the tree has grabbed the pot and is very secure.

Nature creates the best live veins... sometimes we just get to augment them... and if you name is Kimura, then you make them dance and do tricks.

Kindest regards,

Victrinia

[Bretts]

Thats a very nice pot Vic and matches the vine very well. I have a very old grape that I will start working this year I will post a new thread for any advice you might have. I will have to pick Irene's brain as well I know she has been working one very similar to mine.