Problem with my Trident Maple

[anttal63]

Garlic also has antifungal properties so you could give it a try, wont do any harm

Interesting to know matt thanks !

[Andrew Legg]

Garlic also has antifungal properties so you could give it a try, wont do any harm

Interesting to know matt thanks !

Yip - apparently he uses it to prevent damping off on seedlings.

[Bretts]

Hi, this is a dead ringer for the issue.
Just a quick reply at the moment. Not sure why it was suggested that trees in the ground don't get this as I have seen plenty in the ground with it.
But most important thing to combat this issue is lots of growth. The more growth you allow the better the tree can fight it (generally don't remove the leaves even the worst looking ones. Any green on the leaf is giving the tree energy to fight). It seems the fungus may be systemic meaning that it transports around the tree internally. A tree with alot of energy in our understanding is able to compartmentalise disease from the rest of the tree.
Chemical treatment that works by coating the tree and stopping the fungus spores from spreading (called preventative treatment) is Bravo but as stated it is not a nice chemical. I have noticed on various fungal issues literature always recommends mancozeb whenever it recomends bravo. So it makes sense to me that mancozeb can do the same job. Mancozeb is still not the nicest chemical but with a life in the soil of 7 days compared to one year in the case of bravo it seems a much better choice. Ideally it should be sprayed on just before bud burst and the repeated often when conditions are good for the fungus. Mancozeb is also sold in most garden departments and not very hard to get like Bravo.
As my trees leaf out this year I have spotted just a little of tell tale signs of this fungus but only one that I believe is still badly affected. I have sprayed with mancozeb once recently just a little late for the badly affected tree but curious to see what happens this year from here.
If your tree is not a great specimen you may consider disposing of it (not so much for contamination reasons but just that the tree may not be worth the trouble of nasty chemicals). Other option is to plant it out in the ground and let it grow wild. That will be it's best chance of dealing with the issue naturally.

[Andrew Legg]

Hi, this is a dead ringer for the issue.
Just a quick reply at the moment. Not sure why it was suggested that trees in the ground don't get this as I have seen plenty in the ground with it.
But most important thing to combat this issue is lots of growth. The more growth you allow the better the tree can fight it (generally don't remove the leaves even the worst looking ones. Any green on the leaf is giving the tree energy to fight). It seems the fungus may be systemic meaning that it transports around the tree internally. A tree with alot of energy in our understanding is able to compartmentalise disease from the rest of the tree.
Chemical treatment that works by coating the tree and stopping the fungus spores from spreading (called preventative treatment) is Bravo but as stated it is not a nice chemical. I have noticed on various fungal issues literature always recommends mancozeb whenever it recomends bravo. So it makes sense to me that mancozeb can do the same job. Mancozeb is still not the nicest chemical but with a life in the soil of 7 days compared to one year in the case of bravo it seems a much better choice. Ideally it should be sprayed on just before bud burst and the repeated often when conditions are good for the fungus. Mancozeb is also sold in most garden departments and not very hard to get like Bravo.
As my trees leaf out this year I have spotted just a little of tell tale signs of this fungus but only one that I believe is still badly affected. I have sprayed with mancozeb once recently just a little late for the badly affected tree but curious to see what happens this year from here.
If your tree is not a great specimen you may consider disposing of it (not so much for contamination reasons but just that the tree may not be worth the trouble of nasty chemicals). Other option is to plant it out in the ground and let it grow wild. That will be it's best chance of dealing with the issue naturally.

Thanks Brett. Time to explore our local fungicide market! What I've found in my first call are Effecto products called Diathane, Virikop and Funginil. Potassium permanganate has also been recommended, but I'm a bit worried about staining my pot!

Cheers,

Andrew

[Shane Martin]

Hi, this is a dead ringer for the issue.
I have noticed on various fungal issues literature always recommends mancozeb whenever it recomends bravo. So it makes sense to me that mancozeb can do the same job. Mancozeb is still not the nicest chemical but with a life in the soil of 7 days compared to one year in the case of bravo it seems a much better choice. Ideally it should be sprayed on just before bud burst and the repeated often when conditions are good for the fungus. Mancozeb is also sold in most garden departments and not very hard to get like Bravo.

Bretts,
Mancozeb Plus seems to have replaced the original Yates Mancozeb product.... Would the new version be OK to use.... it has the wettable sulfur added?

[Mojo Moyogi]

People.

Has anyone put a name to this affliction or confirmed that it is fungal and if so that it is not caused by something cultural and preventable? You really shouldn't just go whacking Mancozeb or Bravo around (or any horticultural/agricultural chemical) on a hunch or advice from someone on an internet forum.

Cheers,
Mojo

[shibui]

Agreed Mojo,
I have had distorted leaves like this for a number of years and have it on a couple of trees at the moment. Every time it has disappeared WITHOUT fungicide.
Fungicide treatment may be curing the problem but it is also equally possible that the problem disappears despite the fungicide.
I cannot pin any tree deaths to such an infection and agree with Mojo that indiscriminate use of fugicide could lead to resistance and 'superbugs' - even more problems for us as growers. My considered opinion, leave it alone and see what happens or get real professional advice.

[Bretts]

People.

Has anyone put a name to this affliction or confirmed that it is fungal and if so that it is not caused by something cultural and preventable? You really shouldn't just go whacking Mancozeb or Bravo around (or any horticultural/agricultural chemical) on a hunch or advice from someone on an internet forum.

Cheers,
Mojo

Is that since you asked last time or are you asking for an update in the last few months
Mojo it has been explain very clearly to you in particular that this affliction was diagnosed by professionals at a botanical garden that it was a fungus. The treatment stated by the same professionals was Bravo. The fact that the person the test was done for did not also record the scientific name (if it was even given that is) has also been explained to you in particularly.


Hi Neil, Yes it is widely reported that some trees can simply get over this affliction, at least in the short term. This subject came up in conversation over the weekend and it was funny to see the way the affliction was described and I could see my self describing exactly the same way. Those leaves come out and they just can't seem to grow. This fellow also stated that after some time the tree started to gain strength and seemed to overcome the affliction. I also have seen this recovery on many trees and can agree that treatment with toxic fungicides may not be the ultimate answer (although it is relative to the percieved value of the tree in discussion) and I have been and was the first to say this fungicide treatment is NOT a cure. It is stated as being a protectant so all it does is stop the fungus spreading from one leaf to another. The studies I read say nothing of a cure.
But it was recommended by professionals after a pathology test of an affected tree.
This does not say your advice is that it could create resistance is wrong but it is definitely not indiscriminate use as it was advice from a professional pathology test that stated to use Bravo for the fungus affliction . Maybe the test needs updating but I know of many many people that are pulling their hair out trying to find a solution to this. Just recently I saw pictures of a members tridents that must have taken many years of expert care to create amazing trunks to now be afflicted with this.
Personally even though it is some what disappointing I am moving away from growing trident maple but do have several projects still going and time will tell.

Shane, I doubt the changes would make the product less useful but the best bet would be to contact them and find out what if any difference. Love to hear what they have to say

[63pmp]

At the risk of opening old festering wounds, I offer this up for people to consider.

I've had trident s for many years, and had the same problems as described by others here. My conclusions is that the problem is a combination of low oxygen levels in some of the root zone and ammonium in fertilizers. Especially when the tree is coming out of dormancy in spring. The roots of tridents colonize the bottom of pots. In spring as they become active they literally sit in water, which is an oxygen deficient zone in the pot.

Oxygen deficiency in the roots causes the formation of ethylene which is a very potent plant hormone. Primarily, ethylene produces epinasty in the leaves, which is that downward drooping of leaves, epinasty limits sunshine on the leaves, reducing transpiration. Oxygen deficiency reduces a roots ability to take up and transport water and nutrients. Combined with ammonium causing generalised weakness in the plant. Ammonium is transported in the phloem vessels, so it is transported directly to new shoots and leaves, and not dependent on xylem transport like potassium and nitrate-N. This makes the plant susceptible to blights and fungal attacks and odd growth.

Seems that maples are susceptible to ammonium toxicity in spring, this comes about because maples are very good at taking up ammonium. Ammonium, once in the root cells, must be converted to an organic molecule, otherwise it forms ammonia which is toxic to plant cells. Conversion of ammonium to a less toxic form uses up plant reserves needed for leaf and shoot development. Ammonium also stimulates branching and long internode length.

It is important to re-pot tridents regularly and keep their trimmed roots out of the capillary fringe of the potting mix. I think that they should not be fertilized with ammonium or urea based fertilizers until summer.

Plants may grow out of this problem as they develop more leaves or soil temperatures increase; transpiration increases and so water is removed more efficiently and quicker from the bottom of the pot, allowing oxygen back into the roots. Additionally, more leaves increases organic molecules (sugars) to convert ammonium to a safer form.

Paul

[Bretts]

Interesting Paul but it is not just maples and it is not just trees in pots ?

[Qitianlong]

63pmp...
when you say re-pot regularly... does that mean yearly?

[63pmp]

Hi Qitianlong,'

Yes, I think you should re-pot tridents yearly,

Here is a photo of the type of root mass that tridents can develop in one year of growth.

healthy roots.JPG

The zone of dense white roots will be in a near permanent state of oxygen deficiency in early spring if the plant is watered too often, while the roots in the soil above will be in an oxygen rich region. The saturated region will produce ethylene which will affect the whole plant.

Bretts,

I am talking about tridents because that is what this thread is talking about. I have only seen this condition in potted cold climate deciduous trees. But one must be careful about diagnosing any plant disease from leaf samples only, and from photos on a forum site. Some one mentioned the possibility of other causes for the problem, ammonium toxicity/oxygen deficiency is just one of many.

Regards

Paul

[Qitianlong]

Thanks! Yearly it is! That's a lot of roots!!

[Mojo Moyogi]

Look, to be frank and for what it's worth, I believe a lot of what has been seen on this forum as "This Disease" is quite possibly 3 or more different conditions and the visible results of a variety of treatments given.

I have had Tridents with similar leaf distortions as all of the examples given at one time or another. If anyone cares to stop building defensive walls around everything they write and wants to work as a team to systematically defeat this/these conditions and accept the help on offer from many sources, then I'm also willing to help if I can. Otherwise you are on your own.

Cheers,
Mojo

[63pmp]

Mojo said

"I believe a lot of what has been seen on this forum as "This Disease" is quite possibly 3 or more different conditions and the visible results of a variety of treatments given."

Yes, I agree with you. I also think that it is very difficult to diagnose a problem from a photo on the net. People have to consider a number of options before applying chemicals. Starting with water logging, then environmental conditions (potting mix, wind, sun, humidity etc). then fertilizer type and application rates, nutrient deficiency/toxicity. Once you have eliminated these you can look at exotic fungal diseases.

I don't think the O2/NH4 theory resolves all the problems, its just another possibility, but one that is rarely considered anywhere. However, having a range of possibilites is much better then a dogmatic mono-theory.

If it's an O2/NH4 issue, we can replicate the leaf symptoms anywhere in Australia, in any backyard. Finding people with the time and expertise may be difficult. And to be honest, I don't think that many people are interested. How many hundreds of people logged onto the forum in the last 24 hours, how many bothered to post on this thread? But it is doable.

Regards

Paul