apple tree?

[bazron]

i have two apple trees i grew from seed (just to see if i could,was really easy!) but if i decided to keep them and use them as bonsai could i reduce the leaf size??

im am a beginner and still have many questions to ask. ill ask them as i need the answers to make it easier on myself. also im going to try root over rock with an apple tree too.

Aaron..

[g.raft]

Hi bazron, I have also sprouted apple seeds this year. I will grow most out and graft heritage cider apple varities on top of them. However I had almost 95% germination rate so have many left over which I plan to bonsai. I will be interested in hearing responses from others on the leaf reduction issue and if apple's make good bonsai? It is my understanding that apple's grown from seed are a 99% chance of being a crab apple so perhaps this turns it in our favour of a good bonsai resulting?

[Watto]

Apples make good bonsai. The leaf size does reduce with the usual leaf reduction techniques. However I am not sure of the 99% of seed grown are crab apples theory, hmm that would make it very difficult to grow seed stock of any variety if that were true?

[g.raft]

Yep the 99% theory is wrong! The actual thoery goes if you plant 10000 seeds that 1 will grow true to type! My maths isn't good enought to convert 1 in 10000 to percent. All apples these days are grafted so that you know what variety you have.

[lackhand]

It is my understanding that apple's grown from seed are a 99% chance of being a crab apple so perhaps this turns it in our favour of a good bonsai resulting?

So my understanding is that apples typically can't pollinate with their own variety, they need to be cross-pollinated. The fruit will be true to the parent plant, but the seeds will turn out to be a hybrid between the two trees, and since many apples are pollinated by crab apples, there is a good chance of getting some crab hybrid. It won't be a true crab apple either though. As you said, it is for this reason that most apple trees are grafted, so the grower can know for sure what kind of fruit they will get from the tree.

If you're planning to just use the tree as rootstock, or bonsai, I don't see any harm in growing from seed. Just don't expect the tree's apples to taste great!

[bazron]

well it was never my intent to eat the apples as i have read the apples will not be true but i do wish to have a beautiful flowering bonsai. i have no idea on how to graft either.

would the same go for cherry's and all fruiting trees?

thanx for the replies.

[shibui]

Some truly amazing old wives tales brought up in this thread so far

First, back to the original question - Yes apple seedlings will make ok bonsai. Leaf size will reduce a little but fruit size no much so large fruit varietiaes will look funny when fruit are allowed to mature. Crab apples with small fruit are best because you can display a tree with a crop of fruit that suit the bonsai size. Same for other fruit species - small leaf and fruit varieties will make superior bonsai but any tree can be used for bonsai.

Apple varieties can self pollinate - most commercial orchards will have acres of one variety rather than mixed plantings and rarely any crab apples to be seen so commercial sourced apple seed is likely to be self pollinated but this does not mean the seedlings will be the same as the parent. In all breeding the genes recombine in unpredictable ways. Some will look superficially like the parent but will have underlying differences that are more difficult to see - cold/hot hardiness, pest resistance, shelf life of fruit, taste, etc. A seedling will NEVER be the same as the parent.
Most seedlings of recognised varieties will produce trees that will produce good apples but only occasional ones will produce fruit that is superior to the existing varieties (that could be where the 1 in 10000 chance comes in) some of the seedlings will produce fruit that is inferior. I have sampled many roadside seedlings and only ever come across 1 that was truly inedible. Seedlings from backyard trees will show more variation because there is more likelyhood crabapples may have pollinated the flower so the chances of good fruit is less but most should still be edible.

I am really interested to hear why g.raft has grown seedlings as rootstock for cider apple trees. Surely known rootstock varieties would be a better option - you will know the vigour, size and pest resistance of your trees. Grafting on to seedlings is likely to give very large trees with unknown pest and disease characteristics.

[g.raft]

Hi Shibui, the reason for growing the seedling rootstock is of a long and probably a problemmatic expriement. I have an orchard for cider production. I have four 'known rootstocks' that I am using. I want to trial along side these the seedlings grown from seed and grafted. Yes I will get huge variation in what results, and will likely remove many of these trees due to disease or other ssues you raised. On the flip side I am also hoping to gain a unique cider. Most if not all commercial rootstock are aimed at eating apples and promote the fruit to be large. This I don't believe is a good trait for cider production! My current day job is in the wine industry, and I have seen some amazing wines produced off vines that are almost dying when the fruit is harvested. Big, beautiful and healthy don't always go hand in hand with beautiful booze!
Cheers, g.raft.

[MattA]

Edit.. mixed up posters..
If you want your apples to have leaves in keepig with your bonsai grow for a bigger tree 60cm+

G.raft
I am intrigued why you are growing your cider apple on grafted stock? As you will know there is a whole raft of rootstocks for all sorts of purposes but most varieties will grow well on there own roots & many are stronger for it. An aside you can call 'research' is to get out to Mt Moliagul Cherry Gardens from mid november for as long as the season runs. Its a pick your own orchard that has some of the oldest cherries in australia if local folklore is to be believed. What is true is that the oldest & strongest trees are those that were not grafted. Take a bucket & hunt out those old trees with little fruit, they are the bomb. If you want more info or contact details I can pm to you.

[shibui]

I begin to understand now what you are aiming at G.raft,
My understanding of apple rootstock is that they are aimed more at size of the tree (with associated vigour issues) and, like grape rootstock, at pest and disease resistance. I have never seen any reference to size or quality of fruit related to apple stock. I have seen such reference in relation to citrus on the various rootstock but never apple. I believe size and quality of fruit is much more related to soil and culture of the tree.
Due to the variability of seedling stock your experiments may yield some good results and it will be interesting to see. Matt's idea of trialling cutting grown trees will be just as valid for this sort of experimental work.
Pruning and maintaining these trees (or picking the fruit) is going to be an issue. I guess you realise that many seedling apples ultimately grow into 6m tall trees - something that most people now do not understand having only ever seen trees grown on semi dwarfing rootstock.
Best of luck with the trials. I'd like to stop by one day to see what varieties you are growing and talk more about what you are up to.

[g.raft]

Sorry that we seem to have got off topic. I am looking forward to seeing the progression of my apple bonsai seedlings .
I have taken some cuttings for own rooted trees but only a few have taken at this stage with a pretty poor success rate. Will be taking more next season and will probably do more airlayering also.
In regards to size of trees all will be trained onto horizontal trellis wires (you can't take the vineyard out of the boy!) so that height won't be an issue. Will be interesting to see how things progress into the future as I am only really at the start of the process. Cheers all and green thumbs up g.raft