Root on or Over

[Pup]

The discussion in the Shohin competition, is focusing on root over or root on rock and where it is measured from. So thought to put this little Chinese elm up.
So as not to clutter that one, I have started a new thread, knowing also the boss is away on holidays we hope, probably looking at importing some Figs

When it is planted in the Suiban, and measured from the top of that it is 17cm when measured from the base of the rock it is 20cm.
Both these measurements fall within the guidlines for Shohin.

When however you include the rock it does not, so when is it one or tother?

Cheers Pup

Please keep it civil

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[Gerard]

My opinion is that we are looking at the "composition" as a display which needs to be categorised. So I would expect to include the height of the rock. Of course if removed from the rock it would be measured differently.
I want to stress, this is only an opinion.
When we categorise a tree as shohin is there some criteria which suggests that it should be easily held in one hand?

[DavidWilloughby]

I agree with what Gerard has said, but also for a ROR or RON to be considered Shohin, shouldn't the tree be focal point of the image and not the rock ?

I also wouldn't consider that Lovely composition by Mr Pup a Shohin Bonsai either as to me the rock is the centrepeice of the composition and the tree is secondary, which I would consider that more a Penjing. Thats my opinion but respect others that may see it another way.

Cheers

David

[lackhand]

One could also hold that this is a shohin tree planted on/in a rock, but still clearly a shohin size. I guess the question that follows is when is the rock just a pot, and when is it the focus. For me, what draws my eye is the tree and how it fits the rock, and not the rock itself. But the rock is large enough, that it's also hard to say that it's "just a pot" here. Definitely confusing. Could be interpreted any number of ways, and they're probably all right.

It's hard to fit nature into a box/definition, because it specializes in overcoming obstacles so life can succeed in surprising ways. One of the aspects I love about bonsai.

By the way, fantastic little tree, Pup. I'd be very happy to have that on my bench. Time to go rock hunting . . .

[Pup]

My opinion is that we are looking at the "composition" as a display which needs to be categorised. So I would expect to include the height of the rock. Of course if removed from the rock it would be measured differently.
I want to stress, this is only an opinion.
When we categorise a tree as shohin is there some criteria which suggests that it should be easily held in one hand?

Gerard, this can be held easily in one hand, just to confuse the issue

I use the term planted in the Suiban it should have read placed in. Also in the past this has been displayed with water in the Suiban and a little boat, as the president of our club( lucky person) said it reminded her of the trees she saw when in China and was floating along the river.

So yes it can be displayed as either, a Penjing or a Bonsai.

[hugh grant]

Ive been watching this discussion on the other thread so i thought id add my comments here i think this needs to thought about with different words in mind so lets look at it as a composition rather than singling certain elements out. Shohin quite simply are trees that are 25cm tall and under. i take this to mean compositionally as when we view a bonsai we are viewing the composition as a whole and not each individual tree if there are multiple. in this case, is a rock included in this design not part of the composition? ive heard comments that say the rock dosnt matter or the tree is the focus of the composition making the rock noninclusive. if there is a rock in the composition than clearly it is apart of the tree particularly in ROR style. the rock is an extension of the trunk and therefore is apart of the tree. as for trees planted on rocks, this is a scene in which is being created and incorporating different elements which could include shohin size trees but does not mean it is in line to be in the shohin category. i wouldnt enter a compaction in a show with a metre tall rock incorporating small trees and place it in the shohin catagory. i guess this is the reason why in Japanese exhibitions there is a separate section for trees with rocks.
so in all id say a composition that involves rocks is in fact 'involving rocks' and working with the tree so therefore they should be included in height. that height i would say is to the highest point of the composition, be it foliage, dead wood or rock and lowest point being the lowest point on the composition be that nebari, rock base or lowest point of cascade (id measure cascades quite simply from there lowest point to there highest point that way the cascading branch is included in height).

Hugh

[Ray M]

Hi all,
I guess my reply is going to be similar to Hugh. Shohin means, "small article". It is normally considered to be, (10" or less). For convenience in Australia we would say 25cm or less. When I look at a bonsai I look at the total display. Therefore, in my opinion, all elements of a Shohin bonsai needs to be 25cm or less. To clarify the height I believe it should be measured from the top of the pot to the top of the tree, or any other element making up the display.

Thanks for posting this Pup. Makes us do some thinking.

Regards Ray

[Bonsai4ever]

For the purpose of the competition I can understand people attempting a tree planted in or on a rock but to expect to be able to produce a root over rock in 18 months is in my opinion not achievable. As for on a rock, I feel that the total composition should not exceed 25cm and the tree should be at least 15cm tall.

[Pup]

Because I posed this, I have been going though my gafu ten books. this is the Shohin competition run by the Japanese Shohin association.

Majority of the trees that set the display IE the tree sitting at the top of the rack, are 20cm there are some exceptions. There is one that is 20cm with a jin going another 20cm. So the apex is the foliage, not the jin.

Mame and Shohin have different heights, but they have no definitive starting point. Mame 15cm Shohin 23cm, a mini class of trees at 10cm or less, which has been in the past the starting point for Mame. All measurment taken from the rim of the pot.
There were also 8 root on or over rock trees, two of them the rock was very dominant.

The western world with its need for rules, have defined what we now see. In competition it is up to the show coordinator, or the club to set the limits.

Providing these are set before hand, there should not be a problem.

These are what I have gleened over the years as my trees get smaller, but I am not worried too much by this, need for the ugh rules.
I just enjoy making them, by the way is that a challenge that it cant be done in 18 months.
Cheers Pup

[Ray M]

Hi Pup,
Thanks for the update.

by the way is that a challenge that it cant be done in 18 months.

Go for it Pup. Being an Elm I'm sure people would be surprised how quick you could have some reasonable roots.

Regards Ray

[fiveoffive]

After reading eveyones input I think we we need to have a RoR comp.
Its the only way

In my 2c I say the rock is connected to the tree so its a part of the tree and the design.
You Can not remove the rock from the tree un like a pot. So it is a part of the tree.

If u where to photo shop that rock out of the design and have only tree would u say the tree is still as pleasing to look at?
Or does the rock add to the over all effect ?
All so looking at the image that rock must sit in a water tray or sand tray so it can not be called a pot as it needs the tray to act as a pot.

Tho I do think it would do great in a ror comp. Wink wink

Btw great little design pup

[lackhand]

For the purpose of the competition I can understand people attempting a tree planted in or on a rock but to expect to be able to produce a root over rock in 18 months is in my opinion not achievable. As for on a rock, I feel that the total composition should not exceed 25cm and the tree should be at least 15cm tall.

Part of the reason for the debate is that the contest will allow previous root work, but not previous branch work. So you could have had it growing over the rock for years and still enter it as long as you had not worked branches, or if you trunk chopped or removed the branches you had built to rebuild them.

Personally, I don't see that as a huge problem because the contest is about progression. If you start with a nearly finished tree, then it's hard to make a big difference in it. Sure it might be the nicest looking tree at the beginning and end, but how much progress was made over the contest? Check out Steven's winner from the last time, he started with a huge trunk chop on a piece of stock that didn't look like much, but turned it into a nice little shohin.

Pup, interesting insights from Gafu ten. The point about dead wood might be good to add to next comp, but it doesn't seem like Steven is going to change any rules for this one. He did ask for input for future contests though. Also, I'm still hoping to see an entry from you.

[Pup]

[Pup, interesting insights from Gafu ten. The point about dead wood might be good to add to next comp, but it doesn't seem like Steven is going to change any rules for this one. He did ask for input for future contests though. Also, I'm still hoping to see an entry from you. [/quote]


Dont understand the rules.

[lackhand]

[Pup, interesting insights from Gafu ten. The point about dead wood might be good to add to next comp, but it doesn't seem like Steven is going to change any rules for this one. He did ask for input for future contests though. Also, I'm still hoping to see an entry from you.

Dont understand the rules.[/quote]

That does make it difficult. I don't completely understand either, but I'm building my collection anyway so might as well participate. Really, I was just hoping to watch/read as you developed a tree since I find your natives so inspiring. A chance to witness a master at work.

[Steven]

Sitting on Thai beach
Singha in hand
Thinking shohin rules
Sunset keeps me cool

Nice post Pup. A good thought generator.
For the record, the reason I wanted to allow root and trunk work is that I was hoping the standard of entries would improve. Surly there are others out there who have been preparing stock properly from the bottom up. If not then everyone should be starting! Not just for the next comp but so the standard of our trees can improve. You need to create strong foundations before you construct a decent building. I'm also confident that a credible ROR could be produced from scratch in 18 months. It might not be a show stopper but it can be done, especially with an elm, fig etc.

I'll definitely be book marking this thread so that I can review the suggestions etc before writing the rules for the next comp.

Regards,
Steven