Double-Trunk Trident

[missybonsai]

Hey all
I have had this chunky double trunk trident for about a year now, and am still struggling with what to do with it. Thats where you guys come in I would love some direction for this tree, as I haven't even decided on the front yet. It has had some minor styling before I bought it, but I think there are a few problems with that. Here is the tree, with four angles of possible fronts:


Angle 1 (I think perhaps this is the front that the previous owner had in mind)


Angle 2


Angle 3


Angle 4

These pictures were not taken recently, but the tree looks virtually the same.
I would love some opinions on the following:

1. Front?
2. Two very large scars
3. The taller of the two trunks: the new leader does not follow the natural line of the trunk, and I think looks awkward becuase of the sudden direction change so far up the trunk.
4. Anything else you can see wrong with this tree, I won't be offended if you rip it to shreds (figuratively speaking of course!)

I have thought of a few options, such as:
Taking off all the branches, including the new leaders and starting again from new buds.
Carving one or both of the scars into Uro.
Chopping the tallest trunk in the OPPOSITE direction and training a new leader that will follow the trunks natural direction.
Even removing one of the trunks altogether.

I would love any input whatsoever, on the options/problems I have put here, or on anything else you can think of! Thanks in advance

[Bougy Fan]

Is it healthy and does it have leaves now ? I would just feed it and grow it to help with the taper from the chops.

[kcpoole]

Hey all


1. Front?
2. Two very large scars
3. The taller of the two trunks: the new leader does not follow the natural line of the trunk, and I think looks awkward becuase of the sudden direction change so far up the trunk.
4. Anything else you can see wrong with this tree, I won't be offended if you rip it to shreds (figuratively speaking of course!)

1. Depends largely on the nebari. Wait until repotting time then choose the front based upon what is underneath the soil.

2. They need to be hollowed out and allowed to grow over, or carve them and make into a feature.

3. That is what supposed to happen. Changes of direction to make movement and interest. The sections between each bend, need to be thinner and shorter as you rise up the tree.

4. the main concern is the trunks are both same diameter, and the shorter is too long to make a twin trunk. Have a look at developed twin trunk trees, and the shorter trunk will also be much thinner.

Ken

[Ray M]

Hi Missy,
I hope you won't be offended with my suggestions.

1/ Don't do any cutting until spring.
2/ Cut both tops off flat. As you see new shots growing you can train the appropriate shoot in a more vertical direction. Once you choose the new shoot to train as the new leader wait till it gets to about 3mm diameter and wire it in a vertical direction. Be careful not to break the shoot.

Twin trunk maple-3.jpg

3/ If you note the angle the cut has been made on the tall trunk, replicate this angle behind the two new leaders.
4/ You will need to let the new leaders take off and get some girth. Once you are happy with the diameter cut back again and let grow. This will be repeated until you have the diameter and height you want for the new tree.
5/ With twin trunks make sure the trunks are not in a straight line. In your first 2 photos the trunks are in a straight line. In the last 2 photos the second trunk is almost behind the front. Try to have the trunks at an angle. With the tall trunk at the front have the back trunk at an angle behind it.

This is only an opinion.

I hope you will get a nice tree from the stock you have.

Regards Ray

[missybonsai]

Is it healthy and does it have leaves now ? I would just feed it and grow it to help with the taper from the chops.

Yes Bougy, it is now growing very strongly, the photos in my post were actually taken in winter, but the tree still looks the same. Thanks for your advice!

1. Depends largely on the nebari. Wait until repotting time then choose the front based upon what is underneath the soil.

2. They need to be hollowed out and allowed to grow over, or carve them and make into a feature.

3. That is what supposed to happen. Changes of direction to make movement and interest. The sections between each bend, need to be thinner and shorter as you rise up the tree.

4. the main concern is the trunks are both same diameter, and the shorter is too long to make a twin trunk. Have a look at developed twin trunk trees, and the shorter trunk will also be much thinner.

Ken

Thanks Ken, yes that is a good point about the nebari, I will check up on that once it is dormant!
I do understand what you are saying about the change in direction, however I prefer that if my trees are going to have movement, then the movement should start quite low on the trunk. I just feel it looks funny for the tree to suddenly swing in the opposite direction two-thirds of the way up the trunk. But perhaps it doesn't look very smooth becuase of the radical difference in girth as well.
Yes i see what you mean about the twin trunk, with the shorter one being too thick. Do you suggest I chop it off then? Thanks for your help

Hi Missy,
I hope you won't be offended with my suggestions.

1/ Don't do any cutting until spring.
2/ Cut both tops off flat. As you see new shots growing you can train the appropriate shoot in a more vertical direction. Once you choose the new shoot to train as the new leader wait till it gets to about 3mm diameter and wire it in a vertical direction. Be careful not to break the shoot.


3/ If you note the angle the cut has been made on the tall trunk, replicate this angle behind the two new leaders.
4/ You will need to let the new leaders take off and get some girth. Once you are happy with the diameter cut back again and let grow. This will be repeated until you have the diameter and height you want for the new tree.
5/ With twin trunks make sure the trunks are not in a straight line. In your first 2 photos the trunks are in a straight line. In the last 2 photos the second trunk is almost behind the front. Try to have the trunks at an angle. With the tall trunk at the front have the back trunk at an angle behind it.

This is only an opinion.

I hope you will get a nice tree from the stock you have.

Regards Ray

Thanks for your input Ray! And im not offended I would just like to clarify your 5th point, are you saying that you would make the 3rd angle the front? Im not sure what you mean by "make sure the trunks are not in a straight line". Do you mean the new leaders? Thanks!

[bonsaipotter]

It looks to be a pretty impressive specimen really.

What about this:

TTT.jpg

So you can see it's been tipped over to the right a fair way. I think the front would be about half way between a couple of your shots. From the picture above just rotated counter clockwise just far enough to not be able to see the chop scars.
Then sculpt the LH trunk to thin it down a bit and make a join "U" shaped more than "V", and concave out the chop on the right branch. Seal these with cut paste. Over time develop the nebari and the best way to do that would be an air layering in the right plane. If you can get some movement into the top of the main trunk new branch that would be good too. Etc Etc.

Have fun,
Happy Potter

[kcpoole]

That is not a bad solution Happy Potter

by taking a lot off the smaller trunk you remove much of the "weight " of it too and the aspx of the tree still finishes above the center of the nebari.

I just feel it looks funny for the tree to suddenly swing in the opposite direction two-thirds of the way up the trunk

IMHO if the movement is at the base to one side, and then does not come back over the base, then does the tree then become a slanting style?

Check out the first page of Walter Palls Deciduous gallery, and you will see that most trees have there apex above the base and many have a bend to brig the apex back when there is is low movement. http://walter-pall.de/b02gallery_non_co ... index.html

Ken

[Ray M]

Hi Missy,
Sorry for not replying sooner. I am up at Bathurst at the moment and only get to the computer occasionally.

If you look at the mods bonsaipotter has made you will see how the front trunk appears to be in front of the back trunk.

Please have a look at this photo. It is looking down on the top of the tree.

http://www.bonsaiprimer.com/styles/mult ... nplace.gif

Please remember that the "rules" we have for bonsai are a guide. There will almost always be a way to do something different that still looks great.

Please have a look at the following photo. The trunks are in line but the tree looks very nice.

http://bonsaibark.com/wp-content/upload ... rytree.jpg

Regards Ray

[shibui]

however I prefer that if my trees are going to have movement, then the movement should start quite low on the trunk. I just feel it looks funny for the tree to suddenly swing in the opposite direction two-thirds of the way up the trunk.

If the 'change in direction' is 2/3 of the way up the tree the junction of the twin trunks will be half way up???? Twin trunk should split as low as possible or the 2nd trunk is mor of a huge branch.

The idea of the 2 trunks not being in a straight line in 1 is easily solved by a slight rotation clockwise to bring the smaller trunk slightly to the front rather than right in the front as in view 4

The immediate problem I see is the horizontal cut on the smaller trunk. If this is cut back to give a better angle the whole thing will look much better immediately. Further pruning of the newer upper trunks to give movement to match the first bend would add even more to the character.

[Stewart_Toowoomba]

Graham Potter has a good youtube on dealing with a large chop - not that your maple is at the stage in his video, but you'll get the picture.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfVpcJCBc14

Like the slanting style myself. the more experienced members have offerd good advice in my opinion.

Good luck Missy!

[cre8ivbonsai]

Is this definitely a Trident? a current pic would show better, but looks like it might be Japanese Maple to me

[missybonsai]

Wow Happy Potter, I really like that virtual for the tree! It really jumps out at you Thanks heaps for that suggestion, I think thats the future for this tree! I will check out the roots in winter when I repot it.

That is not a bad solution Happy Potter

by taking a lot off the smaller trunk you remove much of the "weight " of it too and the aspx of the tree still finishes above the center of the nebari.

I just feel it looks funny for the tree to suddenly swing in the opposite direction two-thirds of the way up the trunk

IMHO if the movement is at the base to one side, and then does not come back over the base, then does the tree then become a slanting style?

Check out the first page of Walter Palls Deciduous gallery, and you will see that most trees have there apex above the base and many have a bend to brig the apex back when there is is low movement. http://walter-pall.de/b02gallery_non_co ... index.html

Ken

Yes I see what you mean about it becoming slanting style if the apex does not come back over the nebari. The virt by Happy Potter seems to reduce the severity of the angle to my eye, and brings the apex back. Walter's trees are amazing!

Hi Missy,
Sorry for not replying sooner. I am up at Bathurst at the moment and only get to the computer occasionally.

If you look at the mods bonsaipotter has made you will see how the front trunk appears to be in front of the back trunk.

Please have a look at this photo. It is looking down on the top of the tree.

http://www.bonsaiprimer.com/styles/mult ... nplace.gif

Please remember that the "rules" we have for bonsai are a guide. There will almost always be a way to do something different that still looks great.

Please have a look at the following photo. The trunks are in line but the tree looks very nice.

http://bonsaibark.com/wp-content/upload ... rytree.jpg

Regards Ray

Thanks for the clarification Ray, yes i understand what you mean now, i will keep that in mind

If the 'change in direction' is 2/3 of the way up the tree the junction of the twin trunks will be half way up???? Twin trunk should split as low as possible or the 2nd trunk is mor of a huge branch.

Yes that bothers me about the tree too, but Im hoping Happy Potters virt makes a difference to this too. Thanks for your input!

Graham - Thankyou for the video, what a differnce to that scar! I will definetely keep those teckniques in mind for when it comes to carving time!

Is this definitely a Trident? a current pic would show better, but looks like it might be Japanese Maple to me

Yes this is a trident, i think its a slightly different cultivar. Thanks!

[missybonsai]

Here's an update of this tree, had a quick stickybeak at the roots yesterday, and replanted the tree at the angle used in bonsaipotter's virt. There are some nice (if small) roots, mostly at the same level. It appears that not too long ago the tree was flat-bottomed like an olive, and a ring of new roots has grown from here. Some dead and un-needed roots were pruned off, but I tried not to do too much as its not really the season for it yet. The trunk is a fair bit longer than originally thought, as you'll see in the picture. Still undecided as to whether this works with the design, or if a shorter trunk would work better. Depending on what I decide, I may layer the tree as suggested.

Heres the tree in its new position:


I've also done a VERY dodgy virt in an attempt to visualize how the tree would look with a longer trunk, as well as working out some branch placement. Black dots indicate back-branches (there's not enough I know, but its just to give me and you an idea of what it could look like). The left branch would probably be placed lower than in the virt.


Comments, opinions etc are all more than welcome!

[daiviet_nguyen]

RE: New surface roots

Hi Missy,

1. I have not done it myself, but Mr. Antonio aka anttal63 has done it it with great success: viewtopic.php?f=129&t=5315&start=30

2. I also understand that there is a tooth-pick method: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5590

-- I have not done this either

Cheers.

[Ray M]

Hi Missy,
This is a method I have used with great success. viewtopic.php?f=104&t=14664

Regards Ray