Dual Flush and Single Flush (Pines)

[Grant Bowie]

Hi all,

For those of you who were in Canberra and heard Ryan speak about pines; please check if my memory is correct about what Ryan said on the double versus single flush Pines.

A dual or double flush pine is one that puts out strong spring growth (fertilize in spring) that's sets hard early enough to completely trim the candles out and cause a second flush of growth to bud, elongate and harden off(don't fertilize from 40? days prior to the candle cut and while the second flush is budding, elongating and hardening off)

Pines in this Category are Japanese Black and Red pines.

A single flush pine is one that puts out a spring growth(do not fertilize while the buds are elongating and hardening off). Fertilize once the needles have hardened off. To cause budding back with this type you don't cut back hard the first year but allow to grow strongly for one year and then cut back(I don't remember all the fine detail of this technique so extra info would be good)

Pines in this category are the Scotts and Mugho pine.

I am not sure where he put Radiata but I would presume in the dual flush category.

Japanese White or Five needle pine are single flush but I don't think the back budding techniques works with this pine.

Grant

[shibui]

Grant,
My notes say Sinle flush species only produce 1 lot of buds per year. (I assume) even if you prune them?? eg Scots pine, Mugho pine White pine
Multi Flush species can produce a second set of buds (if the spring ones are removed?) eg Black pine, Red pine, Ponderosa pine

To get back budding on single flush species -
yr 1 allow candles to open and grow strongly. The branches are solar panels. they absorb sunlight energy that feeds the roots and set up an energy path. Branches with good growth are successful (from tree point of view) so tree will try to make more buds on those branches to harvest more energy (and as backups in case of damage to the outer end of the branch??)
yr 2 Allow new candles to open then prune to leave 2pairs of needles on new growth.

Maintenance pruning of single flush species - pinch candles while growth is still soft to get new buds to form from the remaining soft tissue.

Multi flush species -
I have no notes on getting back budding on multi flush species.

maintenance schedule: to produce small needles, keep inner buds healthy and prevent tree growing bigger.
Spring - fertilise well.
Summer - stop fertilising a few weeks? (I missed the discussion on how long) before decandling.
Mid - late Dec - Remove ALL candles, even unopened ones (tip only of these??) then pluck needles so that all shoots have about equal number of needles which will be about 8-10 pairs of needles.
Over summer new buds will form. Allow new buds to open and harden - indicated by change of colour and needles become firmly attached - before recommence fertilizing to strengthen the tree.
Autumn - select shoots - thin to leave only v forks (2 shoots at any place) Stronger terminal shoots will have grown strongly and taken energy which will have kept inner buds smaller - remove strong terminal shoots leaving smaller ones as new leaders to stop elongation of branches.


Ryan did stress that whatever pruning schedule you try it will take at least a couple of years to produce good results so stick with 1 technique for several years before giving up and trying somethging different.

[Gerard]

Ryan suggested after 4weeks there will be little or no nitrogen left in the fertilizer, so we should stop fertilizing 4 weeks before the summer de-candling and leave it off until the new needles on the second flush have hardened.

[chrisatrocky]

I have seen a Youtube video, where Ryan explains this aswell.

[Andrew Ward]

I believe Grant that you have summarised Ryan's discussion well. I have checked his presentation on Youtube a couple of times in his presentation to Midwest Bonsai ... and this is reinforced through his presentation at their event.

Refer to http://youtu.be/Yn1FiRw2JBo as a starter ... there is a pine presentation part 1 and part 2 that are very much worth watching.

[Grant Bowie]

Ryan suggested after 4weeks there will be little or no nitrogen left in the fertilizer, so we should stop fertilizing 4 weeks before the summer de-candling and leave it off until the new needles on the second flush have hardened.

OK, so 4 weeks not 40 days.

Grant

[Grant Bowie]

I believe Grant that you have summarised Ryan's discussion well. I have checked his presentation on Youtube a couple of times in his presentation to Midwest Bonsai ... and this is reinforced through his presentation at their event.

Refer to http://youtu.be/Yn1FiRw2JBo as a starter ... there is a pine presentation part 1 and part 2 that are very much worth watching.

OK,

Thanks Andrew.

Grant

[Jow]

Ryan suggested after 4weeks there will be little or no nitrogen left in the fertilizer, so we should stop fertilizing 4 weeks before the summer de-candling and leave it off until the new needles on the second flush have hardened.

OK, so 4 weeks not 40 days.

Grant

The removal of fertiliser 4 weeks before candle cutting was interesting. I usually feed up until the candle cut then remove.

I wonder if it is better to have the fertiliser still in the soil as new buds form, but then removed as the growth extends and hardens (fert removed at cut time)

or

If it is better to remove it 4 weeks before the cut so that the buds form without food and also extend/ harden all without fertiliser?

Interesting. I will experiment next year.

Joe.

[Grant Bowie]

Ryan suggested after 4weeks there will be little or no nitrogen left in the fertilizer, so we should stop fertilizing 4 weeks before the summer de-candling and leave it off until the new needles on the second flush have hardened.

OK, so 4 weeks not 40 days.

Grant

The removal of fertiliser 4 weeks before candle cutting was interesting. I usually feed up until the candle cut then remove.

I wonder if it is better to have the fertiliser still in the soil as new buds form, but then removed as the growth extends and hardens (fert removed at cut time)

or

If it is better to remove it 4 weeks before the cut so that the buds form without food and also extend/ harden all without fertiliser?

Interesting. I will experiment next year.

Joe.

Hi Joe,

I have been having similar thoughts so I wanted to clarify what Ryan said before I start experimenting. Both he and Ooch had sometimes similar and sometimes very different ways of approaching things and yet they can both work; so back to experimenting again in our climate.

I have opinions about Scotts and mugo pine that I wish to explore further and already have some experimental data on the Mugos especially.

[TedHicks]

Grant,
My notes say Sinle flush species only produce 1 lot of buds per year. (I assume) even if you prune them?? eg Scots pine, Mugho pine White pine
Multi Flush species can produce a second set of buds (if the spring ones are removed?) eg Black pine, Red pine, Ponderosa pine

To get back budding on single flush species -
yr 1 allow candles to open and grow strongly. The branches are solar panels. they absorb sunlight energy that feeds the roots and set up an energy path. Branches with good growth are successful (from tree point of view) so tree will try to make more buds on those branches to harvest more energy (and as backups in case of damage to the outer end of the branch??)
yr 2 Allow new candles to open then prune to leave 2pairs of needles on new growth.

Maintenance pruning of single flush species - pinch candles while growth is still soft to get new buds to form from the remaining soft tissue.

Multi flush species -
I have no notes on getting back budding on multi flush species.

maintenance schedule: to produce small needles, keep inner buds healthy and prevent tree growing bigger.
Spring - fertilise well.
Summer - stop fertilising a few weeks? (I missed the discussion on how long) before decandling.
Mid - late Dec - Remove ALL candles, even unopened ones (tip only of these??) then pluck needles so that all shoots have about equal number of needles which will be about 8-10 pairs of needles.
Over summer new buds will form. Allow new buds to open and harden - indicated by change of colour and needles become firmly attached - before recommence fertilizing to strengthen the tree.
Autumn - select shoots - thin to leave only v forks (2 shoots at any place) Stronger terminal shoots will have grown strongly and taken energy which will have kept inner buds smaller - remove strong terminal shoots leaving smaller ones as new leaders to stop elongation of branches.


Ryan did stress that whatever pruning schedule you try it will take at least a couple of years to produce good results so stick with 1 technique for several years before giving up and trying somethging different.

Thanks for explaining in detail..I was searching for similar kind of information and got this wonderful old post.. Thanks again

[Olivecrazy]

Where do allepo pines fit im very new to pines an have been trianing them like my other trees it seems to be doing ok or im just lucky

[TedHicks]

Grant,
My notes say Sinle flush species only produce 1 lot of buds per year. (I assume) even if you prune them?? eg Scots pine, Mugho pine White pine
Multi Flush species can produce a second set of buds (if the spring ones are removed?) eg Black pine, Red pine, Ponderosa pine

To get back budding on single flush species -
yr 1 allow candles to open and grow strongly. The branches solar panel. they absorb sunlight energy that feeds the roots and set up an energy path. Branches with good growth are successful (from tree point of view) so tree will try to make more buds on those branches to harvest more energy (and as backups in case of damage to the outer end of the branch??)
yr 2 Allow new candles to open then prune to leave 2pairs of needles on new growth.

Maintenance pruning of single flush species - pinch candles while growth is still soft to get new buds to form from the remaining soft tissue.

Multi flush species -
I have no notes on getting back budding on multi flush species.

maintenance schedule: to produce small needles, keep inner buds healthy and prevent tree growing bigger.
Spring - fertilise well.
Summer - stop fertilising a few weeks? (I missed the discussion on how long) before decandling.
Mid - late Dec - Remove ALL candles, even unopened ones (tip only of these??) then pluck needles so that all shoots have about equal number of needles which will be about 8-10 pairs of needles.
Over summer new buds will form. Allow new buds to open and harden - indicated by change of colour and needles become firmly attached - before recommence fertilizing to strengthen the tree.
Autumn - select shoots - thin to leave only v forks (2 shoots at any place) Stronger terminal shoots will have grown strongly and taken energy which will have kept inner buds smaller - remove strong terminal shoots leaving smaller ones as new leaders to stop elongation of branches.


Ryan did stress that whatever pruning schedule you try it will take at least a couple of years to produce good results so stick with 1 technique for several years before giving up and trying somethging different.

Thanks for explaining in detail..I was searching for similar kind of information and got this wonderful old post.. Thanks again

[shibui]

It is now 'mid-late December' so it is time to try out Ryan's techniques for pines.
Here's a red pine that I think is sufficiently advanced to warrant the technique.

red pine 2013 12 before.JPG

note that the candles have well and truly opened out on this one.
All new growth have been cut off about 6mm above the base and needles removed to leave just 8-10 pairs on each shoot.

red pine 2013 12 after.JPG

This one is a black pine. Not yet very well developed but might benefit from this technique.

black pine 2013 12 before.JPG

black pine 2013 12 after.JPG

Now to wait and see what happens over the next couple of years.

[Boics]

I went and hacked off all my new JBP candles on the weekend too...

I did look through all the instructions and couldn't find any info about where to cut the candles!
I think in most cases my cuts are flush to the base rather than your prescribed 6mm!?!

Wonder what the impact of this will be....?

[bonsaibeginer]

Hi Neil
May I ask what fert you use (or anyone else) on your JBP? I'm using my normal miracle grow, Charlie carp and seasol and I'm wondering whether this is the reason I don't get as many needles on my candles....
In the post above your needles open up all the way down the candle but my needles just seem to open at the tips with almost 2 thirds of the candles with no needles. Is this too much nitrogen? Should I be using a 0/10/10 fert instead? Or is it something else?
Thanks Grant