Black Cat/White Cat

[GavinG]

Solid gold, Matt, will be trying it out next spring.

Gavin

[MattA]

Grant,
Its the only Lepto that I have had issue with barerooting but the method is useful for other genus species that are likewise difficult and not due to an interdependance with soil flora. Like any method it may need tweaking to suit grower, climate and subject but if your having trouble with one way why not repurpose different methods till you find something that works.

I believe timing is also more important than for other species, I waited till the flower buds were almost ready to open then shorten all the growth back & repot 1-2wks later. I wanted to see signs of bud development but not so much that they will abort when the rootball reduced.

Gavin,
It is only lead, the gold comes with alchemy

[thoglette]

Grant,
The way it was explained to me at the time was that the roots do not cope with being in contact with the air as they are so fine they dry almost instantly and death is the only result. I find it interesting that many bonsai growers in their search often ignore the best source of horticultural knowledge, the commercial nurseryman & specialist production growers.

First, we would have to talk to them.... But I will be trying the underwater techique. As so far the only result has been death. If not the first year, then the second or third.

I prefer copper over aluminium for its holding strength, the colour combined with smaller guage are also a plus. Sometimes I will cut it off others unwire, all depends on the guage, branch in question & species

+1. I'm cheap. Why waste copper if it can be safely removed and annealed.

I find that once a certain degree of ramification has been achieved it becomes difficult to safely remove wire. In fact, applying the wire in the first place can be a challenge!

[MattA]

Thoglette, we seek out specialists for so many things in life, why not seek out those same specialists within the plant world?

[Grant Bowie]

Yusuke told us to remove deciduous leaves before they unnecessarily use up the energy of the tree; thus leaf removal was good for the tree..

I always believed that the withdrawal of the goodies form the leaves during autumn was good for the tree; thus natural leaf fall was good for the tree.

If the removal of leaves is widely practiced in Japan then it is either neutral or is good for the tree; not harmful.

What do you think/know about this?

Grant

[GavinG]

As far as I understand it, the leaves are the (main) source of photosynthetic energy for the tree, so that if they are still on the tree, they are contributing. When things get marginal in the colder weather, the tree gradually seals off circulation to the leaf, which then colours and drops off. So still no drain. Amateur viewpoint of course.

Gavin

[lackhand]

This is another good one. I was just reading on Peter Tea's blog and he said they defoliate trident maples up to 4 times per year in Japan. He said no more than twice per year for Japanese maples, so clearly it will vary a bit depending on species.

I think part of the key to understanding this is knowing the species and development status of the tree. In my (very amateurish) understanding, you would defoliate a tree to force back buds and encourage building of ramification. In this way, Yusuke's comment would make sense as we are forcing the tree to put its energy into that rather than putting the energy into growth of long, thick branches that we don't want and can't use anyway. But obviously if you are trying to build a nice thick trunk, the more growth the better. Which means I won't be defoliating anything for years.

So I guess what I'm saying is that defoliating is a way to control the trees energy, and if it is a very healthy tree it should be fine. But I hope nobody runs out and defoliates every tree they own because somebody else did or said to. Know your tree, and think about WHY you are doing whatever it is you are doing.

[thoglette]

Thoglette, we seek out specialists for so many things in life, why not seek out those same specialists within the plant world?

Sorry - I should have put a smiley for irony.

I have the same problem in my field: the various communities spread across different business areas refuse to recognise that "others" might have something to offer, let alone have fifty years experience dealing with this "new" problem. Particularly those in high profile "industry leading" businesses.

[Grant Bowie]

This is another good one. I was just reading on Peter Tea's blog and he said they defoliate trident maples up to 4 times per year in Japan. He said no more than twice per year for Japanese maples, so clearly it will vary a bit depending on species.

I think part of the key to understanding this is knowing the species and development status of the tree. In my (very amateurish) understanding, you would defoliate a tree to force back buds and encourage building of ramification. In this way, Yusuke's comment would make sense as we are forcing the tree to put its energy into that rather than putting the energy into growth of long, thick branches that we don't want and can't use anyway. But obviously if you are trying to build a nice thick trunk, the more growth the better. Which means I won't be defoliating anything for years.

So I guess what I'm saying is that defoliating is a way to control the trees energy, and if it is a very healthy tree it should be fine. But I hope nobody runs out and defoliates every tree they own because somebody else did or said to. Know your tree, and think about WHY you are doing whatever it is you are doing.

What I meant was that he was recommending removing the leaves at the end of autumn before leaf colour and leaf fall; not mid summer to encourage back budding and smaller leaf etc.

Grant

[lackhand]

This is another good one. I was just reading on Peter Tea's blog and he said they defoliate trident maples up to 4 times per year in Japan. He said no more than twice per year for Japanese maples, so clearly it will vary a bit depending on species.

I think part of the key to understanding this is knowing the species and development status of the tree. In my (very amateurish) understanding, you would defoliate a tree to force back buds and encourage building of ramification. In this way, Yusuke's comment would make sense as we are forcing the tree to put its energy into that rather than putting the energy into growth of long, thick branches that we don't want and can't use anyway. But obviously if you are trying to build a nice thick trunk, the more growth the better. Which means I won't be defoliating anything for years.

So I guess what I'm saying is that defoliating is a way to control the trees energy, and if it is a very healthy tree it should be fine. But I hope nobody runs out and defoliates every tree they own because somebody else did or said to. Know your tree, and think about WHY you are doing whatever it is you are doing.

What I meant was that he was recommending removing the leaves at the end of autumn before leaf colour and leaf fall; not mid summer to encourage back budding and smaller leaf etc.

Grant

Ah, then I misunderstood.

I always thought as you said, Grant, that leaves pulled back their strength, so leaving them on until they fell would be a good thing. As you say though, if they are commonly removed in Japan by bonsai growers it can't be a bad thing. This would make for an interesting experiment. If only I had enough trees to experiment with.

[Tony Bebb]

Once the leaves start to colour they are no longer useful to the tree's health, so removing them would not be a problem. Just depends on if you want the autumn colour display or not. Up here we hang on to whatever colour we get.

Here's another

If a Pine needs pruning you should prune it regardless of time of year. The time of year will only dictate wether you prune the remaining buds or not and how many needles you pluck.

Tony

[Grant Bowie]

Another Black/White/Brindle cat story.

After the major rework on the Japanese black pine Yusuke was very concerned that we keep it in very heavy shade for about 2 weeks; another 2 weeks in semi shade and then out into the sun.

After the major rework on the Japanese red pine Ryan was very concerned that we do not keep it in very heavy shade for about 2 weeks; another 2 weeks in semi shade and then out into the sun. He insisted on full sun straight away.

Grant

[Grant Bowie]

And yet another Black/White/Brindle cat story.

Bending wrapping with?

Yusuke was offered Raffia but rejected it; only wanting rubber.

Ryan wanted only Raffia; no rubber.

Boon wanted Raffia for use on the trunk or where it could be seen and Rubber on portions that are not seen.

I think the above just about sums up the whole Black Cat/White Cat analogy.

Grant

[Grant Bowie]

Wiring.

At Bonsai By The Harbour on the weekend Megumi was giving a demo on black pine and talked about Nagoya vs Tokyo.

One of the first Japanese born bonsai enthusiasts to live in Australia for a few years was Kazu Mitsutani(He was a sports teacher at the Japanese School at Terrey Hills in the late 70s/early 80s) and the Sakura bonsai club was formed around him with Jim Scott, Megumi Bennett, Alan Cropp, etc.

Anyhow he was trained in bonsai in Nagoya and Ooch (Yusuke Uchida) was trained in a similar area.

Kimura and therefore Ryan are Tokyo based.

Megumi said the people from Nagoya are much more strict/fastidious on wiring whereas the Tokyo people are much more laid back or relaxed.

I looked at the trees at the NBPCA that both Ryan and Ooch had styled and it really stuck out; the fastidious wiring and placement of the branches and tips was much more pronounced in the trees that Ooch had done. This could be down to the amount of time spent on each tree to an certain extent but never the less I found it interesting.

Grant

[Jow]

I guess the other thing to bear in mind in regards to bonsai techniques in Japan is that Japan has a wide range of climates itself.

We tend to say 'Japanese techniques' but techniques do vary from area to area. Japan's climate ranges from somewhat like siberia in northern Hokkido down to the tropics of Okinawa. I think it is important to understand what area the techniques come from when applying them at home.

For example, Hirotoshi Saitoh cannot grow black pine as far north as his garden is. The black pines of Takamatsu enjoy a milder climate than tokyo, etc, etc.