Ground Planting in Colanders

[Ray M]

Hi Neli,

Hi Ray,
I have seen the two articles, and tried to read some more to understand it...since it answered a small portion of my questions.
This is what I found and maybe understood or misunderstood But for sure it confuses me a lot.Maybe if I new what the objective of the colander method is it will be more understood. Is it for nebari or trunk thickening, or maybe for easy transplanting/ relocating of trees that handle large root reduction with difficulties?:

It is mainly to get thicker trunks. It also has the benefit of controlling the roots so they don't grow randomly as they would if planted in the ground. Because the roots can grow out horizontally this is beneficial in creating a good Nebari.

Trees have different type of roots, and the root system of different trees might be different.
most feeder roots are at the surface, some distance from the trunk and grow upwards from the lateral roots, towards the surface.
Cutting the roots stresses the tree.
new roots mostly emerge from the cut surface of the root, and does not promote much/ or none emergence of fine roots nearer to the trunk.
Feeder roots are situated at the tips of larger roots.

You must remember that this is one process in the many processes that it will take to create a bonsai. When the tree is close to what you want to achieve as a bonsai it will be removed and the roots will have to be cut to fit whatever pot you choose. This would be the same as if you bought a tree from a nursery in a large pot. Root pruning is a normal procedure when maintaining a bonsai. If a bonsai gets root bound it will slow the growth down and in extreme cases it could kill the tree. To maintain a healthy bonsai we must do root pruning.

I quote some of the things I found:

Established trees that have been growing in the ground have roots that reach out far beyond the branches or drip line. These long branches are used by the tree to anchor and support it. However most of the small feeder roots, which bring in food and nutrients to the tree, are likely to be found growing off the main roots at some distance from the tree itself.

However in a pinch, 2-3 months should allow enough time for the tree to overcome the stress of root pruning and to start the process of developing new feeder roots.
Link:http://gardening.about.com/od/gardenpri ... runing.htm

Root pruning does not stimulate root branching all the way back to the trunk. Roots are often pruned before moving a tree in hopes of creating a denser root ball. However most root growth after root pruning occurs at the end of the root just behind the root pruning cut, not back toward the trunk. Therefore, dig the root ball of a recently root pruned tree several inches beyond the location of the root pruning. Root pruning should be conducted 6 to 10 weeks before moving the tree. Root pruning more than 10 weeks before moving the tree may reduce the advantages of pruning, because regenerated roots will quickly grow outside of the root ball.

Most roots are in the top 3 of soil. The finer roots are concentrated in the top several inches of soil. Most tree roots are located within the top 3' of soil. However, because the majority of the fine roots are concentrated in the top several inches of soil, minor soil disturbances can injure or remove a large portion of the absorbing roots on a tree. This often happens in landscapes surrounding recently constructed buildings.

Trees are often weakened by root damage caused by soil disturbances such as construction related activities. Because these trees are under stress, they often loose many leaves allowing more light to penetrate the branches.

Absorbing Roots feed into long, thin Conducting Roots, which carry water and minerals back toward the
trunk. In undisturbed forest soils the conducting roots may extend outward as much as 2 or more times the
height of the tree, mostly in the top 1-2 feet of soil. These conducting roots gradually converge into thick
lateral Brace Roots, which provide most of the tree's support.

And roots suffer the same loss of stored
energy when they must react to injury and contain decay.

Now here they dont talk about advantages of bonsai media that promotes development of finer roots within the colander...and I think that is an advantage.
If new roots emerge from the cut surface mostly...then those new roots will be always outside the colander...if feeder roots are mostly at the end of those roots, what is the point of cutting them many times? Why not leave them for the tree to grow rapidly?
If all feeder roots are within 20-30 cm from the surface...some will develop inside the colander... (though they say that they develop away from the trunk at the tips of the roots.)
Will it not be better for the creation of better nebari and more feeder roots in the colander...to cut some (not all) large roots in the colander, since the new feeder/fine roots will develop at the tips? This way, the root will branch close to the trunk...and develop feeder roots inside the colander, and make better nebari? After 2 month during warm weather additional roots can be cut, till all are sorted out...
Some of this roots will escape still and help develop the trunk/nebari, but that way larger portion of fine roots will be in the colander, and by allowing some roots to grow outside the colander/or packet, without cutting them, will make the roots of the nebari will thicken much better.
That is what I think...but obviously there must me much more factors that I am not aware of...Just very simple amateurish thinking, and reasoning without proper in depth knowledge.

It would be good if you could do some experiments. Plant three trees. Two in Colanders or your bags and one just in the soil. Lift one of the trees in the Colander a few times through the year and prune the roots. Leave the other one in the Colander and the one planted in the soil and see what results you get after a year of growing.

My only concern with the trees in plastic bags is whether the bags will be strong enough to contain the roots, like a Colander would do, or will the roots break through the bags.

Regards Ray

[Neli]

I am making that experiment now...just did not think of removing the tree and cutting the roots.
The plastic bag contains the roots perfectly, and for many years...allows large roots to escape while not strangling them. It also contains fine roots which allow for easy transpalnting. Here some of my personal experiences for you as proof:
Can you see this sheflera? Grown in a packet reaching over 3 meters...It was huge...This is how it looks after chopping most of the branches...

DSC03469 (338x450).jpg

Root ball after sawing through the packet.

DSC03504 (450x338).jpg

Here is one of your natives. Melaleuka. The tree was over 15 cm diameter...very tall,. the roots grew through the packed. I just sawed through the packet amd planted it in container less than 7cm deep, after further root reduction. So from my personal experience over many years, the plastic holds the roots very well.

[Ray M]

Hi Neli,
Thanks for the photos. I'm glad that the bags work so well.

Regards Ray

[Graeme]

All your points are correct Neli, for trees grown in the ground, but not so for container grown trees. Yep, it is correct that trees grown in the ground will achieve a much faster growth rate than container grown ones. This is due to the trees ability to search out its required feed and water needs. Roots that are three or four metres long obviously have a lot more feeder roots than a tree constrained by a container that will only allow a six inch, or so, root to grow. More feeder roots = more food being pumped into the trees cells and this, of course equals faster growth = bigger trees. Now, where the problems appear in field grown trees show up, for us Bonsai growers, is when it comes time to pot the tree and commence the refinement stage of the growth cycle. A field grown tree, in the main, shows much courser growth habit than a container grown specimen, requiring a longer period of refinement to obtain a 'finished' tree. If we can somehow obtain growth rates somewhere near those of a field grown tree, but with the refinement of a container grown tree we achieve a win/win situation. What Ray is trying to achieve is exactely that.
While it is true that root pruning does stress a tree, it is heavy root pruning that does the most damage, like when a tree is removed from the ground. However, when the root pruning is of a minor nature, as with Ray's "trimming" (not pruning) of the root tips, the stress on the tree is much minor. Again you are right when you say, "new roots mostly emerge from the cut surface of the root". When you cut major roots from a field grown tree most of the new root growth will indeed be from the severed ends, however there will also be some root growth observed from the feeder roots. Now if we look at a container grown tree we find there are no real 'major' roots, instead the container is mostly filled with a finer feeder root system. The reasons for that are many, but the two more obvious ones are that the tree does not have to search out its food or water requirements because we supply those every few days. The second reason is the tree really doesn't have to hold itself in position because the climactic conditions are more controlled so there is no need for those big heavy roots to develop.
There is also another reason why field grown trees grow at a faster rate than container grown trees and that has to do with temperatures. As we are well aware soil stays at a fairly constant temperature, only changing slowly when it does. Container soils are changing temps almost constantly throughout each day. That temp fluctuation wreaks havoc on the trees growth 'program'. Studies were done, some time ago, on the effects of temps on a tree's growth. There was quite some debate on the actual findings, but it was ascertained during periods of high temps root growth actually stopped. Have you ever picked up one of those nice black plastic pots on a hot summers afternoon?
So, now here we have Ray, who has devised a method in which a trees roots can be kept at a more constant temperature, the root growth kept more in check and maintained without undue stress to the tree, unyet the tree has the 'freedom' of the open field in which to grow. Definately a win/win I reckon and even more so than my system of growing in pond baskets (or even styrene box's for that matter). I reckon there are a few trees on my back yard benches that could do with a bit of a trial with this idea.
One other small point about roots, if I may. The major roots don't store food as such, but are simply the 'pipe lines' the tree uses to get the nutriement from the feeder roots to the truck, which contains the cells which do store the food produced by the root system. That's why we can remove all the large roots from a tree and it will survive, as long as there is a large enough minor root system left to continue to forage for food, of course.
Phew, my finger is sore

[Ray M]

Hi Graeme,
Thanks for your reply mate. There is a lot of really good info there. Thanks again.

Regards Ray

[Neli]

All your points are correct Neli, for trees grown in the ground, but not so for container grown trees. Yep, it is correct that trees grown in the ground will achieve a much faster growth rate than container grown ones. This is due to the trees ability to search out its required feed and water needs. Roots that are three or four metres long obviously have a lot more feeder roots than a tree constrained by a container that will only allow a six inch, or so, root to grow. More feeder roots = more food being pumped into the trees cells and this, of course equals faster growth = bigger trees. Now, where the problems appear in field grown trees show up, for us Bonsai growers, is when it comes time to pot the tree and commence the refinement stage of the growth cycle. A field grown tree, in the main, shows much courser growth habit than a container grown specimen, requiring a longer period of refinement to obtain a 'finished' tree. If we can somehow obtain growth rates somewhere near those of a field grown tree, but with the refinement of a container grown tree we achieve a win/win situation. What Ray is trying to achieve is exactely that.
While it is true that root pruning does stress a tree, it is heavy root pruning that does the most damage, like when a tree is removed from the ground. However, when the root pruning is of a minor nature, as with Ray's "trimming" (not pruning) of the root tips, the stress on the tree is much minor. Again you are right when you say, "new roots mostly emerge from the cut surface of the root". When you cut major roots from a field grown tree most of the new root growth will indeed be from the severed ends, however there will also be some root growth observed from the feeder roots. Now if we look at a container grown tree we find there are no real 'major' roots, instead the container is mostly filled with a finer feeder root system. The reasons for that are many, but the two more obvious ones are that the tree does not have to search out its food or water requirements because we supply those every few days. The second reason is the tree really doesn't have to hold itself in position because the climactic conditions are more controlled so there is no need for those big heavy roots to develop.
This is a very good point, Graeme. To have better advantages from this situation, what I do is I cut the root not outside the colander/packet, but near the trunk. I cut only one or 2 roots depending on how many roots the tree has, 1-4 cm from the trunk. I dont bare root the tree. I just carefully dig on the surface, find a root and chop it and bury it again. This way the tree is less stressed, the root forks near the trunk and gives me better nebari. I do that after two month on the other remaining roots, one by one till all are done, after first checking how well the roots have developed from the cut surface. This is better done at the initial stages of the tree development in the ground, but after it is established and healthy, so that the period the tree spends in the ground is used to thicken/develop the nebari as well. At this point I might drill holes and put tooth picks if additional roots are required.
If that is not feasible like on some trees that might have just one huge root I ground layer it from the start and after that proceed with the same method after separating the tree from the roots.
The reason why I was asking what Ray is trying to achieve with the colander method, is because there are many stages in tree development, and there can be different objectives that require different approach. The first stage will be nebari or trunk development. At this stage I believe we want to be as fast as possible. If only small portion of the trunk will be used, and the tree will be trunk chopped, I will not be very concerned much with coarse growth above that section. If I should start extending a leader, I would be concerned with large internodes, especially if I want a shorter tree and the tree is prone to large internodes...But I believe there are ways to slow up the growth and reduce the internodes, without digging the tree..
I also might want to develop some primary branches while the tree is in the ground at a later stage. Again as with the leader, I would be concerned with large internodes. But this can also be avoided and dealt with without digging the tree to slow growth. Beyond that point I would put the tree in small container and begin the refinement.
I agree with you...slowly grown tree is much better looking that a coarsely grown tree.
But there are stages that I would want the fastest growth possible, and I wanted to know at what stage is the colander method advisable to use. So you have answered me...when You want to slow the growth in order to achieve some refinement.



There is also another reason why field grown trees grow at a faster rate than container grown trees and that has to do with temperatures. As we are well aware soil stays at a fairly constant temperature, only changing slowly when it does. Container soils are changing temps almost constantly throughout each day. That temp fluctuation wreaks havoc on the trees growth 'program'. Studies were done, some time ago, on the effects of temps on a tree's growth. There was quite some debate on the actual findings, but it was ascertained during periods of high temps root growth actually stopped. Have you ever picked up one of those nice black plastic pots on a hot summers afternoon?
So, now here we have Ray, who has devised a method in which a trees roots can be kept at a more constant temperature, the root growth kept more in check and maintained without undue stress to the tree, unyet the tree has the 'freedom' of the open field in which to grow. Definately a win/win I reckon and even more so than my system of growing in pond baskets (or even styrene box's for that matter). I reckon there are a few trees on my back yard benches that could do with a bit of a trial with this idea.
One other small point about roots, if I may. The major roots don't store food as such, but are simply the 'pipe lines' the tree uses to get the nutriement from the feeder roots to the truck, which contains the cells which do store the food produced by the root system. That's why we can remove all the large roots from a tree and it will survive, as long as there is a large enough minor root system left to continue to forage for food, of course.
Phew, my finger is sore

Thanks a lot for the fantastic answer...I am a silly girl, that likes to understand things. For me that is the best way to do things. If you dont understand what and why you are doing something...You are doomed to fail. This way if I understand how things work I can try and improve on them.
I am new to bonsai, but old in gardening. So there are many things That I observed, that can be applied to bonsai, if I understood better how things work.
At the moment all my trees, that need trunk growing are in perforated packets in the ground or in very large containers. Some the packets are buried only partially in the ground, so that the roots can escape easily, and it will be easier to work /lift the tree. I was planning to use the escape method on them...As I learn more and more, I shall improve on that method.
At the moment I am doing several experiments to find out what is the best way to do that, so it is easy to have the best of: fast trunk/nebari growing, easy working on the tree, easy lifting of the tree, with minimal stress.
My main research is on how to grow fast trees that do not handle root reduction well, so they can be lifted with minimal losses, less stress, and at have some kind of balance in all the factors.
I want to use the fact that coarse media help develop finer roots, and surface watering as opposed to deep watering, promotes roots nearer to the surface. So I shall post what more I decided to experiment with in spring when I start it.
Sorry about your fingers!

[Graeme]

Nelli, not for one moment would I believe you to be a "silly girl". I very much applaud your questioning, because as you said, "If you don't understand what and why you are doing something...You are doomed to fail." Far to many times I have seen people take on a single piece of information and without question run with that information, only to fall flat on their face. The usual result of such a failure is to accuse the information of being wrong and blaming the informer for passing on 'duff gen'.

Unfortunately Horticulture is not an exacting science, where we know if we mix part A with part B we will blow our hand off. With Horticulture we can assume if we mix Part A with Part B a plant might usually either grow or die, dependant on a mixture of other factors. What those 'other factors' are is the unknown element of growing plants and it is only through questioning of many sources, plus our own experimenting that we can learn that which will routinely work for us in our own situation. I found this out quite a few times, because of my previous Nomadic life as a Serviceman. Stuff I did in Sydney ended in a tree's death in Darwin, while other trees did not suit the same treatment in Howard Springs (an outer 'town' of Darwin) that they did in town. Then, on my move (again) to Queensland I learnt I had to modify the way I did things again. Nup, not an exacting science at all.

When ever I give an answer to a question I feel I can help with it, is always on the proviso that I am offering suggestions on what has worked for me. My answers don't come from a book, or heaven forbid Google, but from my own experiences. I have never dissuaded anyone from asking questions, nor stopped asking them myself. My Dad once told me he thought he had once met the man who knew everything, but he was wrong. Continue to ask as many questions as can pop into your head and never once consider yourself a "silly girl". An interesting aside to asking questions, well to me anyhow. How many times have you heard, or seen a question being asked (about anything) and thought to yourself, "That's interesting, never thought about that myself"? It is so true that we don't know what we don't know.

Sorry Ray, I seem to have gone off track there a bit, think I'll hand your thread back over to you now mate.

[Neli]

Thank You Graeme. I do this hobby for fun, but might as well do it properly...Experimenting for me is fun! Ray loves that too. I fear I made an a$$ out of my self on IBF, asking WP (too many sensitive questions people would not dare ask) why his hedge method is good for me... and not only for people with lots of bonsai...The thread was 5 pages in one day... and I got as many PM from people that did not want to offend him openly...with their opinion.
But at list I heard different sides opinions and more or less made up my mind...Now need to try it and compare, since I have my doubts.
I have a wild imagination...and some time imagine things that are not there too.

[PAUL2229]

I have nothing to add other than I just bought some colanders and im going to repot some elms and maples this winter and see how they do.

proceed with your discussion

[Neli]

Paul, buy some planter bags too, and try them. Maybe you can like them and compare how they are with colanders.

[Ray M]

Hi Graeme,

Sorry Ray, I seem to have gone off track there a bit, think I'll hand your thread back over to you now mate.

That's fine mate. It's great to get other folk offering information.

My Dad once told me he thought he had once met the man who knew everything, but he was wrong.

Love it. My Dad told me to always listen to what is said, then make an informed decision as to how relevant the information is to you.

Graeme, you raised a good point again about where we grow our bonsai. This is one of the reasons I posted viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15491&hilit=+live. There are so many variables that we must factor in when receiving information from other.

Hi Neli,
I hope you are finding good information. I fully understand your desire to find out as much information as possible. Continue to enjoy your hobby and, yes, have lots of fun.

Hi Paul2229,
Good to hear mate. I hope you have lots of success and have fun. Let us know how you go.

Regards Ray

[Neli]

Ray, Thank You for having such a kind and generous heart!

[PAUL2229]

Paul, buy some planter bags too, and try them. Maybe you can like them and compare how they are with colanders.

good idea.

I bought a box of maples (50+) from Pedro Pio a few weeks ago and there are quite a few similar size maples in there that would be good for testing, ive already made up a few in colanders, and two straight into the ground, so i'll grab a couple of planter bags and compare those as well.

i'll share my results when I have some

[Neli]

That is fantastic! It will answer some questions for me. Just for the record, I also bought colanders and plan to use them in spring. Some in the ground and some above.After I plant the trees in the planter bags I put them in the ground. Make sure they have enough room to spread the roots and bury them after pocking lots of holes on them. Fold the edge back to make them a bit shorter if they are too tall, and you can grow them inside in bonsai media. If they dont have much roots grow them first just like that and then bury the packet a bit lower than ground level so they are easy to water.
It is easier to make the holes when they are full of soil, and make sure you poke them a lot... . Just pock them fast with a sharp stick. When you are ready to lift, just use a saw and slice the packet where you want to slice it, if it is too tall. There is no need to lift them , until you have the desired trunk, leaders and even part of the primary branches. If they have bigger roots, I make holes on top of the packet, bigger ones (around), and push some roots out horizontally and radially arranged. It helps to form a nice nebari, since they escape and thicken in good position. Some time I would dig on top...carefully, and chop one of those roots,2-3 cm from trunk and bury it again. After some time I will do the same with the rest of the roots one by one, without digging the plant. I plan to try also a new experiment, and put a part of planter bag cut like a small square onder the root I chopped so they dont form new roots downwards, but laterally. Maybe you can try that with few trees? I shall try it this spring.
I want to try also another new technique with maples. They have long internodes, so while they are young I want to form the trunk in height and shape just the way branches are ramified, until I have the desired height, by pinching them while in the packet, and leaving the side branches to grow also. The purpose is to have short internodes. I shall do that only until the section is as tall as I need the trunk to be, and then let it grow freely to thicken. I expect to have a trunk with short internodes, movement and tapper. Maybe someone can suggest how better to proceed with this exercise, so that no big scars are formed...or healed fast...there are several things to consider.
Wish You a good luck, and please post.

[Kerry]

The results look great, I notice that one of the replies you got referred to using Bonsai mix in the colander.
Two questions arise;
1 Do you also use Bonsai mix in the original planting
2 Presume that the Bonsai mix and garden soil have different rates of drainage and drying, if this is the case do you need water the colander more heavily than the surrounding soil.
Will appreciate your comments, Rgds Kerry