Help needed in Japan

[Neli]

I am from Zambia. Our climate here is :
Winter lowest temperature is 6 degree Celsius, which is 42 F
We are at altitude level 1500 meters.
No hot temperatures like in Europe or California...our summer is cool. Heat in Japan now is 42 C
All pines are outside on full sun.
I am at school at Taisho en in Japan now at international bonsai school. I bought one white pine dwarf variety...yatsubusas cousin myiogi.
I would like to buy some more black and white pine, but I am not sure if they will survive here.
Is there any one that has grown white pine for longer than three years in a place that has winter temperatures not lower than mine.
What is important is the winter temperature....heat they can survive, but not sure how much winter resting temperature they need to do well and I don't plan to build any cold rooms.
Any advise on which species I should not buy will be greatly appreciated, since I like them all and might end up buying unsuitable ones.
I shall post when I go back home in a month time all the things I learned here.
I like the pines so much that I hope beyond reason someone has managed them out there with my type of climate.
My climate should be the same as northern Australia.

[NathanM]

In all honestly, you will struggle to keep white pine with winters no colder than 6deg. I live in Brisbane where our winters sometimes, but not often get to 0deg, and we can’t keep white pines alive very well here. Hot summer temps are fine, but they need the cold winter.
Black pine will have no problems, and red pine will likely be fine, but white pines you probably won’t have much luck I am afraid.

[Neli]

Nathan, I asked the master today after I posted . I explained to him my temperatures. He told me that yamadori white pine or white pine grown from seed is not going to do well in my climate....but if I get white pine grafted on black pine it is very strong and it will do well.
I am not sure if he has the experience with our climate to tell me that.
The white pine you had was it grafted on black pine or not....I will definitely like to know if it makes any difference if it is grafted on black pine.

[Dario]

Yes it does make a difference Neli as the foliage type that is grafted to the root stock takes on the characteristics of that rootstock (to a certain degree).
If black pine does well in your climate, so should white pine grafted on to black pine roots...I am sure your teacher would know what he is talking about.
Cheers, Dario.

[Neli]

Thanks Dario. I am buying some cheap ones to try first....then I shall get better ones. I have seen itoigawa grafted on some juniper with not a compact foliage. The itoigawa starts growing half way between the two in appearance. Even took pictures...so I think that you are right also.

[Dario]

Hi Neli, look forward to seeing your purchases when you get home.
Don't know about the juniper foliage you described, sounds interesting.
I just meant that now that the white pine foliage is on black pine roots, it will be ok in a temperate climate that doesn't have the really cold winters that white pine normally needs.
White pine is a high altitude mountain species that requires a longer dormancy period, hence it is a "single flush" grower. Black pine is from a lower elevation (sea level) and as a result it does not require the long winter dormancy period.
So when you graft white pine on to black pine root stock it now takes on the characteristics of black pine...so it no longer requires the long winter dormancy and can be relocated to a climate that black pine thrives in. This is also why I think your teacher said it is very strong and it will do well, because it is on black pine roots and black pine is a vigorous grower.
White pine will survive in climates that do not have the really cold winters, but it will be very much weakened and although it may take a few seasons or more for it to die, it usually does as its energy is slowly depleted as a result of the extended growing season and it not being able to shut down sooner and go into dormancy as it is genetically programmed to do.
I admit that I am paraphrasing Ryan Neil (and most probably pretty poorly at that), but that seems to be the general gist of it.
Cheers, Dario.

[Andrew Legg]

Sounds like you've got your answers there Neli. There are quite a few healthy white pines here in Cape Town, but I think most of them are on JBP roots. I'll phone around tomorrow and drop you an answer.

Cheerio,

Andrew

[Neli]

Hi Neli, look forward to seeing your purchases when you get home.
Don't know about the juniper foliage you described, sounds interesting.
I just meant that now that the white pine foliage is on black pine roots, it will be ok in a temperate climate that doesn't have the really cold winters that white pine normally needs.
White pine is a high altitude mountain species that requires a longer dormancy period, hence it is a "single flush" grower. Black pine is from a lower elevation (sea level) and as a result it does not require the long winter dormancy period.
So when you graft white pine on to black pine root stock it now takes on the characteristics of black pine...so it no longer requires the long winter dormancy and can be relocated to a climate that black pine thrives in. This is also why I think your teacher said it is very strong and it will do well, because it is on black pine roots and black pine is a vigorous grower.
White pine will survive in climates that do not have the really cold winters, but it will be very much weakened and although it may take a few seasons or more for it to die, it usually does as its energy is slowly depleted as a result of the extended growing season and it not being able to shut down sooner and go into dormancy as it is genetically programmed to do.
I admit that I am paraphrasing Ryan Neil (and most probably pretty poorly at that), but that seems to be the general gist of it.
Cheers, Dario.

Thanks Dario. That makes a lots of sense. I shall buy for now few cheap ones...not sure if they will manage here.
Your info is of great help to me. Thanks again.

[Neli]

Sounds like you've got your answers there Neli. There are quite a few healthy white pines here in Cape Town, but I think most of them are on JBP roots. I'll phone around tomorrow and drop you an answer.

Cheerio,

Andrew

Andrew what are your winter temperatures....the warmest where white pine survives. I sent an email to Rudi this morning. Can you give him a call and ask him?
It will be much appreciated.

[Pup]

Hello Neli just reading your thread here, in Western Australia we have a similar climate to yours, occasional frost, very occasional.

I had a white pine grafted on JBP understock last for 3 three years, was nice while it lasted.

Having said that it was quite large around 60 cm with a base of 10 cm so going by that it was older, how it got into WA is still a mystery as Pines are on the no no list.

The Nursery I got it from does import a lot of stuff from the Eastern states though, so going on that you might struggle.
I do hope you have success though as they are very nice trees.

Cheers Pup

[NathanM]

As Dario said, it will be much hardier when grafted on to a Black pine.
One "issue" depending on your perspective/tastes, is the white pine foliage on black pine bark is not usually considered desirable.
What I mean is that in Japan it is VERY rare for a white pine grafted on to black pine to make it into high level exhibitions.
Buit hey, if it helps it to survive in your climate, I say go for it

[Neli]

Hello Neli just reading your thread here, in Western Australia we have a similar climate to yours, occasional frost, very occasional.

I had a white pine grafted on JBP understock last for 3 three years, was nice while it lasted.

Having said that it was quite large around 60 cm with a base of 10 cm so going by that it was older, how it got into WA is still a mystery as Pines are on the no no list.

The Nursery I got it from does import a lot of stuff from the Eastern states though, so going on that you might struggle.
I do hope you have success though as they are very nice trees.

Cheers Pup

Pup,
Thanks a lot. I shall just stick with the mame white pine and maybe one another shohin . I can shove the mame in the fridge....the shohin I shall just experiment on. They are very cheap here, so it will be OK.
Do you have any JBP growing in your area with successes? You said pines are on the no no list....is that black pine included?

[Neli]

As Dario said, it will be much hardier when grafted on to a Black pine.
One "issue" depending on your perspective/tastes, is the white pine foliage on black pine bark is not usually considered desirable.
What I mean is that in Japan it is VERY rare for a white pine grafted on to black pine to make it into high level exhibitions.
Buit hey, if it helps it to survive in your climate, I say go for it

I don't think any of my bonsai will reach any exhibitions. I am the only one in Zambia with bonsai so far...
But honestly speaking the grafted ones I saw here....had no noticeable difference in the bark though the graft can be seen. Maybe I don't know how to notice ....I can send you a picture later. I am at school now....

[NathanM]

It would depend on the graft I guess. If you graft a white pine "leader", like a young whip, on to a black pine base the bark above the graft will be white pine, and below will look like black pine. in many years this MAY become more noticeable as the black pine bark will get a lot more corky than the white pine, but what I was more referring to was grafting white pinbe foliage on to a black pine trunk
Would love to see a pic

[Neli]

It would depend on the graft I guess. If you graft a white pine "leader", like a young whip, on to a black pine base the bark above the graft will be white pine, and below will look like black pine. in many years this MAY become more noticeable as the black pine bark will get a lot more corky than the white pine, but what I was more referring to was grafting white pinbe foliage on to a black pine trunk
Would love to see a pic

Nathan I went today and looked at foliage of whiteine and black pine mature trees. I could not see any difference at all. They looked the same to me. Then I looked at a white pine grafted on BP, did not see a Difference also. Tomorrow I shall take pictures for you.the way they graft here is a leader....I shall post a picture shortly of white pine grafted on black pine young tree.