Help needed in Japan

[Neli]

Maybe I don't know what you mean but, this is a grafted WP on BP.

[shibui]

They must be grafting very low on the black pine rootstock - just enough to give it roots but no black pine trunk because the bark is so very different and looks really bad when grafted a bit higher.
I think the Japanese have had plenty of experience with grafting these pines so should be very good at doing it properly so you cannot see the black pine bark on the trunk.
Just my I do not think white pine will do well at your home Neli. The do not grow well for me here even though I have cold winters. I think they do not like the hot and maybe dry? summers.

Yes it does make a difference Neli as the foliage type that is grafted to the root stock takes on the characteristics of that rootstock (to a certain degree).

Grafting should make almost no difference to the grafted part of the tree. It is possible that a very vigorous rootsstock could make naturally densely packed foliage a little more open because it grows faster but that is all. I have some shimpaku grafted onto another garden juniper trunk and the foliage looks identical to all the other shimpaku. It just grows much quicker and bigger on the grafted trunks.

[Neli]

They must be grafting very low on the black pine rootstock - just enough to give it roots but no black pine trunk because the bark is so very different and looks really bad when grafted a bit higher.
I think the Japanese have had plenty of experience with grafting these pines so should be very good at doing it properly so you cannot see the black pine bark on the trunk.
Just my I do not think white pine will do well at your home Neli. The do not grow well for me here even though I have cold winters. I think they do not like the hot and maybe dry? summers.

Yes it does make a difference Neli as the foliage type that is grafted to the root stock takes on the characteristics of that rootstock (to a certain degree).

Grafting should make almost no difference to the grafted part of the tree. It is possible that a very vigorous rootsstock could make naturally densely packed foliage a little more open because it grows faster but that is all. I have some shimpaku grafted onto another garden juniper trunk and the foliage looks identical to all the other shimpaku. It just grows much quicker and bigger on the grafted trunks.

Thanks Neil, I was hopping beyond reason that it will be possible. I like them so much....it is a pity. I have learned how to style them....and I can not have one. He he he! I shall try the black pine.
About the foliage....I shall try to email you some pictures to see how the foliage of the itoigawa changes when grafted on a different type of juniper...don't know the name, but oyakata said it happens very often....the itoigawa juniper changed its foliage to something in between the two....I found it very interesting, and not too sure what causes it.
Neil, thank you for all the help and advise...you have been great.

[Dario]

Yes it does make a difference Neli as the foliage type that is grafted to the root stock takes on the characteristics of that rootstock (to a certain degree).

Grafting should make almost no difference to the grafted part of the tree. It is possible that a very vigorous rootsstock could make naturally densely packed foliage a little more open because it grows faster but that is all. I have some shimpaku grafted onto another garden juniper trunk and the foliage looks identical to all the other shimpaku. It just grows much quicker and bigger on the grafted trunks.

The quote that you used shibui was not made in reference to the foliage type changing when grafted etc . It was refering to the fact that a mountain pine such as ponderosa or white pine that would not thrive and survive long term outside of its native region in a climate that does not have the cold winters and long dormancy periods that the above species would normally require on its own roots, will thrive and survive long term when grafted onto the root stock of a pine species that is native to a different region in a climate that has a long growing season without the extended winters of a mountain environment.
Hence the foliage type taking on the characteristics of the rootstock to a certain degree.
Cheers, Dario.

[NathanM]

It would depend on the graft I guess. If you graft a white pine "leader", like a young whip, on to a black pine base the bark above the graft will be white pine, and below will look like black pine. in many years this MAY become more noticeable as the black pine bark will get a lot more corky than the white pine, but what I was more referring to was grafting white pinbe foliage on to a black pine trunk
Would love to see a pic

Nathan I went today and looked at foliage of whiteine and black pine mature trees. I could not see any difference at all. They looked the same to me. Then I looked at a white pine grafted on BP, did not see a Difference also. Tomorrow I shall take pictures for you.the way they graft here is a leader....I shall post a picture shortly of white pine grafted on black pine young tree.

PWhite pine an black pine have very different foliage. Black pines are two needles and a usually firmer, and white pines are 5 needles and usually softer, and usually shorter.
Japanese white pine

Japanese black pine

[Neli]

Ay ay ay....I did not mean foliage....I meant bark....I know how they all look. Sorry!
Oyakata took me and showed me different white pines...some yamadori, some from seed and some grafted... The grafted ones on JBP had much greener foliage....and I mean foliage this time....the yamadori had more gayish green foliage...
I shall try to take pictures tomorrow. I meant in the previous post that I did not see any difference in the bark between white and plack pine on old bonsai. They look the same to me.



I have another question here.
What if I graft white pine on tropical variety of pine that grows well in Zambia. Will that make any difference?
Has anyone tried that? What do you think? Can it work?
Grafting in other trees improves the disease resistance and other quality of the grafted material....can it happen with the Pine too??? I am definitely going to try it. But what do you think?

[shibui]

It would be worth trying Neli but survival will depend whether it is the roots or the foliage that is having trouble coping with the climate. I think that the white pine dies because the leaves cannot cope with hot summers or maybe just dry air??. Even if I graft a white pine the leaves are still going to be white pine leaves and will still not like the hot, dry air.

If it is the roots that do not like the area then it would be different - we graft almonds onto peach roots so they will grow well on clay soils because almond roots rot in wet clay soils but peach copes ok (in drier sandy soils peach grows better on almond rootstock). The West Australian Chamelaucium uncinatum grows naturally on sandy soils. when we try to grow them here in the east they die after a few years because our soils are too wet in winter but grafted onto Myoporum rootstock which is an eastern plant and can cope with wet soils the Chamelaucium can survive for longer.

[Neli]

Neil, thanks a lot for the help again.
That I don't know....what really prevents white pine from growing here. What I think though is the biological clock adaptation. For them to grow well they need to rest...heat does not bother them. It is 42 C here now some days. Humidity can be provided. I don't know their mechanism of growing...and why they need resing period....and what happens if they don't get it. I know BP rootstocks affects their manner of growing and they are much stronger, and faster growing.
I am going to research all that when I reach home...but it has to do with the genes...
Unless I try I will never know....I am a very stubborn woman.

[Andrew Legg]

I am a very stubborn woman.

Really? Who woulda thought?

[kcpoole]

I am a very stubborn woman.

Really? Who woulda thought?

Give it a try Neli and you will either succeed and everyone will be amazed, or it will fail but at least you will know

Ken

[Dario]

It was refering to the fact that a mountain pine such as ponderosa or white pine that would not thrive and survive long term outside of its native region in a climate that does not have the cold winters and long dormancy periods that the above species would normally require on its own roots, will thrive and survive long term when grafted onto the root stock of a pine species that is native to a different region in a climate that has a long growing season without the extended winters of a mountain environment.
Hence the foliage type taking on the characteristics of the rootstock to a certain degree.
Cheers, Dario.

Hi Neli, I think I have got this wrong and that it is the other way around...the grafted foliage will determine the climate that the rootstock can now thrive in when dealing with grafted pines and their foliage and root stock coming from opposing climactic regions (ie higher and lower altitude areas).
This does raise a few questions for me though. So I am going to research this topic further. Please note that I am only talking specifically about pines though.
Sorry for the confusion.
Cheers, Dario.

[Neli]

I am a very stubborn woman.

Really? Who woulda thought?

Give it a try Neli and you will either succeed and everyone will be amazed, or it will fail but at least you will know

Ken

I might not succeed but I shall have lots of fun trying....

[Neli]

I am a very stubborn woman.

Really? Who woulda thought?

Give it a try Neli and you will either succeed and everyone will be amazed, or it will fail but at least you will know

Ken

Not you for sure darling!

I shall be so grateful, and I think it can help lots of people in our regions.
I promised you pictures how the foliage of itoigawa changes half way towards the rootstock when grafted...I shall post them just now.

[Neli]

I am a very stubborn woman.

Really? Who woulda thought?

Not you for sure Darling!

[Neli]

]Look at the foliage on the left and right...both is itoigawa exactly the same. Note that the one on the left was grafted before the one on the right. Can you see the change in it? Color...foliage type...