Azalea trunk development

[Kevin Nel]

Hi guys.

Ive done a search on the forum and couldn't come up with anything on development of Azaleas. I got a couple of nice flowered plants from a nursery recently, and they are really just rooted cuttings in a pot. But they are compact growing with small flowers and small leaves too.

So, my question is, how do I go about developing the biggest trunk in the shortest amount of time? Where I am at Ill have to use winter protection for them, but growing in the garden is an option, otherwise big growing pots. I figure all will come down to fertilizing as well. Ive taken off all the flowerbuds last night, as I want it to grow vigorously this coming season and not use the energy for flowering. Here are pics of the different flowers.

Thanks in advance.

[kcpoole]

In the ground or large pots
Plenty of water and very as well

Ken

[gerald randall]

I agree with Ken. I have two in the ground, but no expert on the species at all. All I know I have read. Apparently you should try and remove most of the flowers when they flower. Not all, but most. You should not feed it with Azalea fertilisers as that focuses on flower development. General purpose fertiliser or something like 7:1:5 or 7:1:3. Kept in the ground. Mine is going to stay in the garden for as long as it can. I'm thinking it will take 10 years. Well, at least it will give some green to the garden while it's there.

[treeman]

Developing fat trunks on azaleas:

Wire your whip to the shape and height required.

Prune roots for a well shaped future nebari (very important!).

Plant in a large container of mainly course river sand. Mix should be only 15cm or so deep but as wide as you like.

Top the mix with chopped Sphag moss.

When starting to grow late spring, water very day.

Feed with liquid fertilizer (half strength and low in P) every 4 days. (don't use any organics!!)

Wet the leaves as often as you can.

Allow to grow unchecked for a year (keep an eye on the wire).

Encourage as many low scarifice branhes as possible.

When sacrifice branches have reached a little less than the diameter of the trunk, remove them entirely.(but only in spring!!)

Seal all cuts.

Make sure you encourage taper by judiciously pruning the branches.

Repot in 6 years (depending on the container and trunk size)

Repeat for another 5 to 55 years.

When ready you will have a nice thick trunk with all the branches removed, cuts sealed, roots pruned hard, potted in a training pot waiting for branch development.

Easy!

Bonsai is planning...

[gerald randall]

Treeman

Post some photos of some of your Azaleas, which you have developed using these techniques.

Rgds
Gerald

[kcpoole]

Developing fat trunks on azaleas:

Wire your whip to the shape and height required.

Prune roots for a well shaped future nebari (very important!). I just rake the surface ones outward to cut any crossing ones every time I repot or lift and replant

Plant in a large container of mainly course river sand. Mix should be only 15cm or so deep but as wide as you like. I use only Kanuma with my azaleas in pots, but my Daitomite based mix works well when I used to use it. An open and well draining mix is required


Top the mix with chopped Sphag moss. I Never bothered covering any of my soil substrate. If you water often enough no need

When starting to grow late spring, water very day. Yep sometimes more often but that depends on local conditions. on 40+ deg days

Feed with liquid fertilizer (half strength and low in P) every 4 days. (don't use any organics!!) how come ? I Disagre here, all my trees ( including Azaleas) get Liquid organic once a month and all have Neutrog Sudden impact ( chook poo based) as pellets on the surface)

Wet the leaves as often as you can. I water by over head sprayer so they get wet every time it water but only then

Allow to grow unchecked for a year (keep an eye on the wire). Yep sometimes more often Sometimes less, The young growth if you wire before it lignifies, you can take the wire off in only a few weeks.

Encourage as many low scarifice branhes as possible. Yep, The only way to get trunk girth and a sensible timeframe

When sacrifice branches have reached a little less than the diameter of the trunk, remove them entirely.(but only in spring!!) Yep, do not let them get too big as they take ages for the bark to roll over wounds. I remove them at any time of the year

Seal all cuts. YEP

Make sure you encourage taper by judiciously pruning the branches. Yep

Repot in 6 years (depending on the container and trunk size) I repot mine every year when in Training pots

Repeat for another 5 to 55 years. Yep

When ready you will have a nice thick trunk with all the branches removed, cuts sealed, roots pruned hard, potted in a training pot waiting for branch development.

Easy!

Bonsai is planning...

Sort of agree with the above except where noted in colour, but that is largely just personal preferences, and the same really applies to any plant.
Azaleas are easy to grow so long as you Never let them dry out and leave enough root there to support the tree. They are really easy to train due to rapid setting of position under wire, but remember that the older wood can be very brittle. They are very forgiving as Bonsai as they readily backbud on old wood so if pruning mistakes are made, they will recover with new branches in short times.
They are really easy to propagate at any time of the year from Cuttings so grab some and chuck them in in a humidity tray and get growing.

Here are 3 of mine I have been growing from cutting about 3 years now. Lots of movement and hopefully taper in some trees that in another 3 years will be Sho;hin Size and in Bonsai pots.

Ken

[treeman]

Developing fat trunks on azaleas:

Wire your whip to the shape and height required.

Prune roots for a well shaped future nebari (very important!). I just rake the surface ones outward to cut any crossing ones every time I repot or lift and replant

Plant in a large container of mainly course river sand. Mix should be only 15cm or so deep but as wide as you like. I use only Kanuma with my azaleas in pots, but my Daitomite based mix works well when I used to use it. An open and well draining mix is required


Top the mix with chopped Sphag moss. I Never bothered covering any of my soil substrate. If you water often enough no need

When starting to grow late spring, water very day. Yep sometimes more often but that depends on local conditions. on 40+ deg days

Feed with liquid fertilizer (half strength and low in P) every 4 days. (don't use any organics!!) how come ? I Disagre here, all my trees ( including Azaleas) get Liquid organic once a month and all have Neutrog Sudden impact ( chook poo based) as pellets on the surface)

Wet the leaves as often as you can. I water by over head sprayer so they get wet every time it water but only then

Allow to grow unchecked for a year (keep an eye on the wire). Yep sometimes more often Sometimes less, The young growth if you wire before it lignifies, you can take the wire off in only a few weeks.

Encourage as many low scarifice branhes as possible. Yep, The only way to get trunk girth and a sensible timeframe

When sacrifice branches have reached a little less than the diameter of the trunk, remove them entirely.(but only in spring!!) Yep, do not let them get too big as they take ages for the bark to roll over wounds. I remove them at any time of the year

Seal all cuts. YEP

Make sure you encourage taper by judiciously pruning the branches. Yep

Repot in 6 years (depending on the container and trunk size) I repot mine every year when in Training pots

Repeat for another 5 to 55 years. Yep

When ready you will have a nice thick trunk with all the branches removed, cuts sealed, roots pruned hard, potted in a training pot waiting for branch development.

Easy!

Bonsai is planning...

Sort of agree with the above except where noted in colour, but that is largely just personal preferences, and the same really applies to any plant.
Azaleas are easy to grow so long as you Never let them dry out and leave enough root there to support the tree. They are really easy to train due to rapid setting of position under wire, but remember that the older wood can be very brittle. They are very forgiving as Bonsai as they readily backbud on old wood so if pruning mistakes are made, they will recover with new branches in short times.
They are really easy to propagate at any time of the year from Cuttings so grab some and chuck them in in a humidity tray and get growing.

Here are 3 of mine I have been growing from cutting about 3 years now. Lots of movement and hopefully taper in some trees that in another 3 years will be Sho;hin Size and in Bonsai pots.

Ken

Just 2 points. They will grow and fatten much faster in sand than Kanuma, You want long thick roots not fine congested ones.
Repotting each year will seriously slow the plant down. You need to let them be for 5 or 6 years. (not that I was ever that patient, the longest I went was 3 or 4) That's where the sand comes in. Diatomite may work as well too but I doubt it.
If you follow my steps, You can have branches 2 meters long and really stack on the wood if you want. But you need a big containter (wide that is) and sand so the fine roots do not penetrate the particles but go round them.

[treeman]

Treeman

Post some photos of some of your Azaleas, which you have developed using these techniques.

Rgds
Gerald

I don't grow them anymore and sold all but a few small ones. But the best I got to was about 40mm just above the nebari after about 5 years..from a cutting.
But they seem to be popular again so I might try a few but I'd like concentrate on Kinsai and Kurmues???

[kcpoole]

Developing fat trunks on azaleas:

Wire your whip to the shape and height required.

Prune roots for a well shaped future nebari (very important!). I just rake the surface ones outward to cut any crossing ones every time I repot or lift and replant

Plant in a large container of mainly course river sand. Mix should be only 15cm or so deep but as wide as you like. I use only Kanuma with my azaleas in pots, but my Daitomite based mix works well when I used to use it. An open and well draining mix is required


Top the mix with chopped Sphag moss. I Never bothered covering any of my soil substrate. If you water often enough no need

When starting to grow late spring, water very day. Yep sometimes more often but that depends on local conditions. on 40+ deg days

Feed with liquid fertilizer (half strength and low in P) every 4 days. (don't use any organics!!) how come ? I Disagre here, all my trees ( including Azaleas) get Liquid organic once a month and all have Neutrog Sudden impact ( chook poo based) as pellets on the surface)

Wet the leaves as often as you can. I water by over head sprayer so they get wet every time it water but only then

Allow to grow unchecked for a year (keep an eye on the wire). Yep sometimes more often Sometimes less, The young growth if you wire before it lignifies, you can take the wire off in only a few weeks.

Encourage as many low scarifice branhes as possible. Yep, The only way to get trunk girth and a sensible timeframe

When sacrifice branches have reached a little less than the diameter of the trunk, remove them entirely.(but only in spring!!) Yep, do not let them get too big as they take ages for the bark to roll over wounds. I remove them at any time of the year

Seal all cuts. YEP

Make sure you encourage taper by judiciously pruning the branches. Yep

Repot in 6 years (depending on the container and trunk size) I repot mine every year when in Training pots

Repeat for another 5 to 55 years. Yep

When ready you will have a nice thick trunk with all the branches removed, cuts sealed, roots pruned hard, potted in a training pot waiting for branch development.

Easy!

Bonsai is planning...

Sort of agree with the above except where noted in colour, but that is largely just personal preferences, and the same really applies to any plant.
Azaleas are easy to grow so long as you Never let them dry out and leave enough root there to support the tree. They are really easy to train due to rapid setting of position under wire, but remember that the older wood can be very brittle. They are very forgiving as Bonsai as they readily backbud on old wood so if pruning mistakes are made, they will recover with new branches in short times.
They are really easy to propagate at any time of the year from Cuttings so grab some and chuck them in in a humidity tray and get growing.

Here are 3 of mine I have been growing from cutting about 3 years now. Lots of movement and hopefully taper in some trees that in another 3 years will be Sho;hin Size and in Bonsai pots.

Ken

Just 2 points. They will grow and fatten much faster in sand than Kanuma, You want long thick roots not fine congested ones.
Repotting each year will seriously slow the plant down. You need to let them be for 5 or 6 years. (not that I was ever that patient, the longest I went was 3 or 4) That's where the sand comes in. Diatomite may work as well too but I doubt it.
If you follow my steps, You can have branches 2 meters long and really stack on the wood if you want. But you need a big containter (wide that is) and sand so the fine roots do not penetrate the particles but go round them.

Actually I counted 6 agrements but 4 with comments

if you leave a tree to go mad and grow unhindered for 6 years then you may well end up with fast growth, but it will most likely take another 6 years to build sufficient fine root and nebari to put in a pot, and the same time to trunk chop and then build decent taper in the trunk.
There is a reason why most growers of good bonsai stock repot or lift and root prune trees every year or 2. I do my JBP in the ground every 2 years to get better control over the root growth and taper.

Speed is not everything

Even so the 3 I have show above are only 3 years old from cuttings and have put on 20 mm or so in girth, so another 3 - 5 will have your 40mm trunk and can go directly into a bonsai pot. I might actually keep one as a test and see how they do actually go.

Re Sand, Why use that? it is not porous or absorbent so will not retain any moisture, and thus dry our too fast. I the soil thread here viewtopic.php?f=12&t=18450 you say that you do not use Diatomite because it dries out too fast, but yet here you say you recommend using a worse performing soil?

Ken

[Graeme]

if you leave a tree to go mad and grow unhindered for 6 years then you may well end up with fast growth, but it will most likely take another 6 years to build sufficient fine root and nebari to put in a pot, and the same time to trunk chop and then build decent taper in the trunk.
There is a reason why most growers of good bonsai stock repot or lift and root prune trees every year or 2. I do my JBP in the ground every 2 years to get better control over the root growth and taper.

Speed is not everything

Even so the 3 I have show above are only 3 years old from cuttings and have put on 20 mm or so in girth, so another 3 - 5 will have your 40mm trunk and can go directly into a bonsai pot. I might actually keep one as a test and see how they do actually go.

Re Sand, Why use that? it is not porous or absorbent so will not retain any moisture, and thus dry our too fast. I the soil thread here viewtopic.php?f=12&t=18450 you say that you do not use Diatomite because it dries out too fast, but yet here you say you recommend using a worse performing soil?

Ken

Couldn't agree with you any more Ken. Speed certainly isn't everything. Some will know, but I copped a heap of flack after the post I originally made on a Fast Grow Method I've used, appeared on another Forum. The points made there were correct, if we stick a plant into the ground it will certainly out grow anything potted up. If we never root prune the thing it will again outgrow the same plant subjected to regular root pruning. But!!!! The differences are soon caught up again when the "styling" of the tree is finished and the time to pot up arrives. The container grown tree will most certainly regain it's vigor a lot quicker than the ground grown one, or the container grown one that was left to it's own devices. Also, everything about the plant will be more 'refined' and in style with a Bonsai, because that is how it has been grown. I read somewhere (about 100 years ago ) from someone I don't remember, that trees took much less setback if they were trained in a potting medium they were going to be potted in. While I have no scientific basis to believe that statement, my gut feeling is that it is correct. I have always grown my 'in training' stock in my normal Bonsai potting medium. Now, onto my favorite subject. Not having a shot at you treeman, but any sort of sand has zero Cation exchange capability. That means that nearly all of that fertiliser you give your Azalea is going to pretty well run out the bottom of the container and not be used by the plant. Not sure what the C.E. of Kanuma is, but being a clay based substance I'd say it was probably pretty good. I also believe Daitomite has a reasonable C.E., not that I use it. My mix contains a high % of course sand particle, but also has a good amount of organic matter as well, so is able to hang onto those fertiliser salts a bit longer for the plant to use.
An interesting observation I made recently in Singapore concerning Azalea. In one of the public gardens I noticed a group of Azalea growing in a stream bank. I have always been of the opinion Azalea needed well drained, moist soil to thrive, but there were these plants and quite advanced plants at that, growing with their root systems in flowing water. Just goes to show, doesn't it? The more we know, the more we have to learn.
On the subject of root pruning, I split both of you guys and do mine every 3 or 4 years, depending on the state of the plant.

[Damian Bee]

I don't grow them anymore and sold all but a few small ones. But the best I got to was about 40mm just above the nebari after about 5 years..from a cutting.
But they seem to be popular again so I might try a few but I'd like concentrate on Kinsai and Kurmues???

Nice choices Treeman.

Can I add R. kiusianum to your list

[treeman]

Actually I counted 6 agrements but 4 with comments

Well no, just 2. As follows: 1 Azalea will grow faster in sand (with the feeding I mentioned)
2 Repotting Azaleas every year when you are trying to thicked them is a mistake.
The rest was to explain the above 2 points.

if you leave a tree to go mad and grow unhindered for 6 years then you may well end up with fast growth, but it will most likely take another 6 years to build sufficient fine root and nebari to put in a pot

Generally correct. But not with Azalea. It has a very different type of root system to most other trees. Fine roots can be re-developed in one season and from wherever you cut. The nebari does not get pruned and ''rebuilt'' after removal from the field/container, only heavy roots eminating from it.

and the same time to trunk chop and then build decent taper in the trunk.

Taper is (ideally) not formed in Azaleas by the trunk chop method. Hence my advice to use judicious pruning of the sacrifice branches to form taper.

There is a reason why most growers of good bonsai stock repot or lift and root prune trees every year or 2. I do my JBP in the ground every 2 years to get better control over the root growth and taper.

Well I consider myself to be a producer of good bonsai stock. I do indeed lift and prune all my in-ground stock every 1 or 2 years and that inculdes all the pines, deciduous, and rosacea. But NOT junipers or Azaleas!

Re Sand, Why use that? it is not porous or absorbent so will not retain any moisture, and thus dry our too fast.

At the risk of repeating myself, I believe sand (with a topping of moss) AND a good and regular feeding program will give you the best results.

[Damian Bee]

Going to give that a crack treeman

[treeman]

Ken

The container grown tree will most certainly regain it's vigor a lot quicker than the ground grown one

Not true. A properly managed (regularly root pruned.....not azaleas!) field grown tree will have have huge vigor compared to a container grown one and establish just as quickly or more so when transfered to a container as compared with its container-grown counterpart.

I read somewhere (about 100 years ago ) from someone I don't remember, that trees took much less setback if they were trained in a potting medium they were going to be potted in.

Only if they are poorly managed

I have always grown my 'in training' stock in my normal Bonsai potting medium

.
You may be wasting your money

Not having a shot at you treeman

Thats ok, please do! These sort of discussions a far more interesting and instructive to me.

but any sort of sand has zero Cation exchange capability. That means that nearly all of that fertiliser you give your Azalea is going to pretty well run out the bottom of the container and not be used by the plant

.
Let me explain once more my choice of this material for forcing Azalea growth. (quartz river sand 1-4mm)
True sand has no CEC but the regular feeding (and possibly feeding at every watering) will take care of any leaching of nutrients in this case. Remember that hydroponics often boast extrodinary growth rates and they usually use substrates with 0 CEC. Again, the reason I recommend sand for azaleas (only for thickening in wide containers of course, not for bonsai work) is directly related to their unique root system. Because sand has no internal pores and has a smooth outer surface, the fine root is forced to go around the particle and keep elongating. This causes it to thicken and it's this thickening of the root which leads to thickening of the trunk.
If you are concerned with it drying too quickly, you can add a little perlite or possibly even diatomite but not more than 10% or you begin to defeat the purpose of using the sand and of course mulch with moss.

[Kevin Nel]

Thanks for all the comments guys. Thanks for the advice as well. Ive taken off all the flowers and im waiting for the new growth to start so I can start working on them. Its still chilly here in the evenings, so Im still pondering on repotting or not....