lackhand wrote:From what I can see/read Australian bonsai is doing alright. To put things in perspective, the city I live in (Phoenix) is roughly comparable to Sydney in population, and compared to the 6 bonsai nurseries there we have 0 here. Yes, zero bonsai nurseries and zero bonsai professionals - and usually no mallsai at the local big box places either. There are other places in the US that have better resources for bonsai, but they're a long drive or flight away.
We do, however, have some pretty good auctions going on through Facebook that have made finding and purchasing good starter trees, tools, pots, etc. possible. I agree that it helps with valuing things and helping people be realistic about their trees' value. It also allows you to move stuff on if no longer wanted.
I'll bow out now, because my knowledge of bonsai in Australia comes from this forum mainly, so I don't have much to add. But I sure wish I had six nurseries to choose from!
Thanks for your input Lackhand. Not saying where not well served here in Sydney. I known in some parts of the world bonsai is poorly served. Though I've heard there are similar concerns about longevity of clubs and bonsai in the USA. The new professionals and influx of quality stock plants is helping to turn things around there, I think.
The new internet auction site on facebook, is that the one you are talking about? Must check it out soon.
Internet has certainly made the world smaller and helped bring bonsai to many people.
Paul
Last edited by 63pmp on November 9th, 2014, 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
lackhand wrote:From what I can see/read Australian bonsai is doing alright. To put things in perspective, the city I live in (Phoenix) is roughly comparable to Sydney in population, and compared to the 6 bonsai nurseries there we have 0 here. Yes, zero bonsai nurseries and zero bonsai professionals - and usually no mallsai at the local big box places either. There are other places in the US that have better resources for bonsai, but they're a long drive or flight away.
We do, however, have some pretty good auctions going on through Facebook that have made finding and purchasing good starter trees, tools, pots, etc. possible. I agree that it helps with valuing things and helping people be realistic about their trees' value. It also allows you to move stuff on if no longer wanted.
I'll bow out now, because my knowledge of bonsai in Australia comes from this forum mainly, so I don't have much to add. But I sure wish I had six nurseries to choose from!
Thanks for your input Lackhand. Not saying where not well served here in Sydney. I known in some parts of the world bonsai is poorly served. Though I've heard there are similar concerns about longevity of clubs and bonsai in the USA. The new professionals and influx of quality stock plants is helping to turn things around there, I think.
The new internet auction site on facebook, is that the one you are talking about? Must check it out soon.
Internet has certainly made the world smaller and helped bring bonsai to many people.
Paul
The site/group on Facebook is called Bonsai Classifieds. A few split off and now there is also one called Bonsai Auctions, and another called $.99 Bonsai Auctions or something like that. Like I said, I think having a market has helped with availability and prices. There were some overpriced sellers on there, but you don't see them anymore, because with an auction nobody was biting.
The new professionals are helping, and we have a huge amount of good potential yamadori, but not all areas are equally served. We do have several clubs, but thus far I have found them underwhelming. I am in my 30s, and definitely one of the younger people involved here. I plan to be more involved in the coming years, trying to provide cheap starters by growing from seed. We all need to do what we can to keep the future bright.
63pmp wrote:I'm not sure that the growth in bonsai is keeping pace with general population growth, when this happens it's trouble. I think an avenue to supply, recycle and increase interest in bonsai is through an auction house that everyone can utilize. This makes competition apparently, and that's supposed to be good, isn't? hardly anyone on this thread has looked at this idea. Why is that? Is it dumb and unnecessary? No thoughts at all?
I'm starting to think this entire discussion can be summed up in the argument "Why can't I sell my 36-month-old TV for the same price I paid for it?"
I just don't think the bonsai community is big enough or unified enough to justify an auction mechanism, or a governing body dictating prices. Besides the fact that we'd all be thinking "why would I buy your tree when I can make a better one on my own", there's just no demand outside the current clubs for any such mechanism. I wouldn't participate in it either as a service nursery or bonsai artist out of principle, no stock nursery would participate because it's commercially stupid, and nobody would bid because the bonsai community has become so stagnant that everybody knows each other already. On the other hand, complaining about people devaluing their "priceless" works of "art" on the competitive market could become a wonderful new hobby for some. I could see a place for an informal barter network, but that's about it.
I'm posting on the forum in my capacity as a service nursery owner (focused on a target market that are most definitely NOT already bonsai enthusiasts), but in my other life I studied Composition, and my "day job" is in Music and Entertainment. Some of the works my colleagues have produced are genuinely world class - exploring new ways to use music in the fine tradition of art musicians before us - but there is no retail market for such music, and works are produced with the expectation that they'll never make money for the composer. Our reward is to enrich our skills through practice, and to establish our own profiles as professionals. There's no financial benefit in being a composer, yet we still do it. I think that, for the bonsai community, such a reward will have to be enough.
In regards to the simple "bums on seats" problem you've highlighted, earlier in this thread I made two points - the first being that the bonsai community is old, uninviting and obsessed with Japan, and the second being that there's absolutely no good-quality entry-level bonsai on the market. I'm opening Southern Sky Bonsai to address the second of these points, but the first of these isn't for me to fix. I love working with my father on our bonsai collection, and the two of us will talk to customers for hours about anything to do with bonsai - but I find the bonsai clubs so frustratingly hostile that I want to burn my entire collection after any bonsai club meeting I attend. I blame the "bums on seats" problem almost entirely on the clubs, who work endlessly to make bonsai more elitist and less accessible - and I hold firm that until the clubs get their act together that the bonsai community cannot grow.
Interested in your Nursery Southern Sky can you tell us where you are in Sydney? Just saw Greystanes. If your open have you and address so we can come and have a look Thanks.
Last edited by marleey73 on November 9th, 2014, 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I was in Japan last year. I wanted to know what was happening with bonsai in Japan. The often repeated response was that it is in decline, being the domain of old people, wealthy retired businessmen and eccentrics. Bonsai is going the same way as other Japanese traditions. Young people are not interested in sumo, geisha and bonsai. Indeed, I saw many neglected bonsai in my travels.
Life in general is busy. Who has time and money for a hobby, or coaching or volunteering? If it is anything to go by, service clubs are globally in decline. The sentiments expressed in this thread may well support this.
Still, it is what it is. It is a hobby that I enjoy. I have met interesting people involved in bonsai, and have travelled because of bonsai. To be honest, it's horses for courses. Bonsai is my thing, just as others have theirs. By the way, my wife looked at me and said, "so which one are you - old, retired or eccentric ?"
Regards
Jb1
One thing that hinders the growth of bonsai is old man time. Our society is moving away from anything that isn't instant. Fast food has replaced family diner in many homes. Just listen to the kids complain if the TV doesn't change channel in a split second and don't you know that you MUST change your mobile, TV, Play Station ...every year cause you MUST have the latest electronic gadget? etc etc etc
When you hear people say, "Plant it in the ground for 5 years then come back and see what you have", well you've just lost 99% of the younger generation. There's a good reason that bonsai is an old persons hobby. They have the time to potter around their plants and are old enough to realise that most things do not happen instantly.
Bonsai is like any hobby or sport, gardening, painting, pottery, cricket it doesn't matter. They all have their peaks and troughs in popularity and it is always a VERY SMALL number of people who make a living out of any hobby/sport and an even smaller number who make a good living out of it. Most people I know simply can't be bothered to care for a plant for many years until it looks like a miniature tree. I don't know if bonsai is growing, dying or treading water. I will continue to grow my plants, train them and hopefully get something decent in time to come.
just want to commend JB1 comments. I was in Japan a few months ago and was surprised that there was no bonsai to be seen in my everyday travelling.
Most younger Japanese people don't know about bonsai. They call it a potted tree and don't understand about the artistic aspect of the tree .
I hardly saw any bonsai in my travels, except for a few semi bonsai on front patio's. I was taking a tourist style Japanese holiday and didn't seek out any bonsai nurseries. .
I have followed this thread rather keanly. The topic has moved around a bit, but the reality is that it started off with a concern about the survival of bonsai in Australia. I have no real understanding of the bonsai community in Australia, but what I see on this forum. If I had to gauge from this forum, Australia have many very passionate people involved in bonsai. The number of posts on this forum every day, is probably of the highest compared to other forums I am aware of globally. If this is anything to go by, Australian bonsai would seem to be doing well.
The concern about the future of bonsai, the resale value of bonsai and closure of nurseries have caused some serious debate over the last while. It is not unique to Australia.
I would like to make a generic comment. I know a bit about art. My family have been collecting fine art for a very long time. Inevitably I have spent a lot of time in that industry.
In the fine art world, there are an array of participants. On Friday I walked through a hall with 40 paintings each worth more than $1 million. At the same time, I can go to a market over the weekend and it will have many stalls filled with paintings selling for $50. The person painting the latter is a hobiest who enjoys painting, but in essence it is no more than a hobby and they are no more than active in a craft. They are not artists. They buy canvas, they buy paint, they paint the canvas. They sell their paintings for a small markup and buy more product to paint more paintings. They do it because they like to paint, not because they think they are producing investment art. The person wanting the painting wants a colourful painting for their wall, but knows very little about art. That's OK.
The next level up are the entry level artists. They sell direct, via the Internet and some at galleries. The prices are higher than the hobiests, but nothing close to $1 million. The level up from there are the recognised artists, who can charge anything from $5000-10000, and beyond for their work. These are individuals who have mastered their art and are recognised to produce unique and bespoke pieces.
On the fringe you find the corporate artists who produce for corporates and hotels. They mass produce good quality work, but it isn't art. It isn't considered art in the art industry either. These are purpose works.
Bonsai is no different. Hobiests should not expect to sell their trees for what Kimura sells his trees for. Mainly because he is a world renowned artist.
Like in the fine art world, real art takes a long time to sell and it is based on supply and demand, not to mention provenance.
If bonsai is to survive anywhere, the participants should understand the basics of the art world and how they fit into that. I have many trees I will not sell for what they are worth. They are worth a lot more to me than they would be worth to anyone else. Because I'm a grower, not a recognised artist, I should expect to receive a low price for my trees. When I sell them, I will be disappointed if I believe I will sell them for what they are worth to me.
On a related topic, bonsai nurseries need not die out. That goes for clubs also.
An example: we have 4 nurseries in our area. One is phenomenal in growing field grown pre bonsai, especially elm. The other is a recognised master, the third recognised masters and the fourth a web based nursery. On the outside of that there is a company which have about 650 bonsai which they rent out to companies for their reception and boardrooms. Further there is a 80000 m2 landscaped private garden.
Now imagine everyone works together. The expensive trees are exhibited in the garden. When not that, they are used in the corporates as exibits, while being advertised on the website for sale. It can take years to sell, but it pays for itself while this happens. It earns an income stream in the corporate or in the garden. A special attraction to the garden, drawing more feet, and more tea is sold in the tea garden and more picnic hampers. The pre bonsai, tools, etc are sold at the nursery and online. Corporate client gifts, distribution through woolworths, etc. The possibilities are endless. Not only that, the web allows nurseries to reach the world.
There are different markets, the nurseries need to understand which market they wish to attract and work out a strategy to target them. If I were selling $1 million trees, I would not be going to an expo or a nursery. I would hire an art gallery, and invite the affluent to the opening night. If I were selling $50 trees I would sell them at an expo, chain store or even at a nursery. The craft market compared to the recognised fine art market.
The world is changing. It has been changing for as long as bonsai has been around, yet it has survived. It will not survive unless the participants think differently about themselves and use the opportunity to reinvent bonsai.
gerald randall wrote:The world is changing. It has been changing for as long as bonsai has been around, yet it has survived. It will not survive unless the participants think differently about themselves and use the opportunity to reinvent bonsai.
Gerald, very well written. There are potential markets out there, and those that are able to find the right business models will find success. Just because one bonsai business fails, doesn't mean they all will. Just because one succeeds, doesn't mean they all will. Great points about understanding different levels of art and where we all fit in the spectrum.
I've been interviewing for jobs lately and I have bonsai listed as a hobby on my CV. I get asked about it every time. I think there is a lot of general interest out there, but people don't think it's something they can do, or don't know how to get started. I was interested for years before discovering that somebody I knew had one (a mallsai as it turns out) but that was what it took for me to realize that maybe I could actually grow them myself.
Bodhidharma you missed the point
Or chose to ignore it
rookie93 wrote:
... That tree is then bought by a beginner and they proudly come to this forum & show it off, only to be ridiculed & told to give it some movement & stick it in a big grow pot for a few years...
I don't think bonsai is in trouble, but realistically, it is just a niche interest for a small bunch of us ordinary people. We're not the Prestige Art Market set. To my mind the standard of bonsai is quite a lot higher than it was 20 years ago, as the community matures and our trees age. I don't think the NBPCA could have been set up 20 years ago. With the internet we are all a lot more aware of what people are growing around Australia, and around the world.
Nurseries will probably always find it difficult, because there just aren't enough punters out there, and we can't just keep on buying trees.... It's complicated by the fact that as we get more experienced, we often start to grow our own.
Nurseries also have a problem because the good trees sell quickly, and the not-so-good stuff just tends to hang around and fill the place. There aren't the millionaires buying status symbols to drive up prices for great trees. I like Australian bonsai - it's personal, not production-line.
As for clubs, I've had mixed experiences. Canberra people are Congenitally Nice, and the club is particularly inclusive and quite self-consciously non-judgemental. Leaders who set themselves up as Arbiters of Standards, and Judges of The Lesser Mortals often spoil the experience for the less experienced. There are ways of encouraging and teaching that don't involve carping criticism. If you don't like the atmosphere, see if you can find another club. I quite like this one. Although Pup still hasn't sent me a Mel, despite me asking nicely.
rookie93 wrote:so $174 per hour.. not a bad return
When are you opening a nursery mate!?
Does that equate to twenty years of time put into a quality tree, for some one to say Shari that's dear at $2000,00.
Biggest problem is the Knockers, Australia has some very good artists, they are willing to help any one who is willing to help them selves.
Sticks in pots can and have been made into nice Bonsai ( takes time), but I am old so I don't count, new Ideas are not really new just like fashion recycled.
Just my feeble Pup
IN THE LIGHT OF KNOWLEDGE ATTAINED, ACHIEVEMENT IS WITHIN SIGHT
and don't you know that you MUST change your mobile, TV, Play Station ...every year cause you MUST have the latest electronic gadget? etc etc etc
Pup
