chinese elm stump advice on carving

[Jamie]

hey guys,

ok sorry if this isnt posted in the right spot but i wasnt quite sure so feel free to move it bosses
basically i have decided i want to go with the split trunk but i havent undertaken a job of this size as of yet. this stump has been posted on this site recently and as i have had positive feed back to my idea i think i am happy to go with it.
what i am asking is how and what sort of proccesses would be the way to go?
would i be best marking out where i want to make the hollow out, and then create a shari to suit first before going into the carving side of things. i eventually want to get through all the way too create a twin trunk.
is this going to slow the ramification proccess dow by sending its energy to healy the cuts and chops?
would i be best waiting for the shari to heal over before going all out and taking this trunks "meat" out of it?
i am hoping for a more dynamic and exciting look. i have posted the pictures again so you can see what i am working with.
i am hoping those with the experience of chopping, splitting and carving on chinese elms can help me out here. as much info as i can get will be greatly appreciated!

so i am calling on all you experts out here as this will be a bit of a learning experience for me, and the last thing i want to do is mess up and have this tree die

elm.1.1.jpg

[bodhidharma]

Hi Jamie, i think the first thing you should do before you do anything else is to give the tree some movement. this can be as easy as bending the leader to the right and creating a new apex. Develop the top a little and ramify the lower branches more and you might find that the tree will stand on its own merits. No need to hack a perfectly good tree without seeing where it can go first,. Patience is the key to good Bonsai.

[Jordy]

i'm no expert but from the looks of your 'shopped image'
it seems like you plan on cutting right to the core of your tree and in my opinion your foliage at the tip of that bonsai is likely to die on cutting that deep into your tree.
If you REALLY want to create a twin trunk, the shari seems like a safer way to gradually ease your tree into the 'change', although the same result for the tip of your tree may still occur.

but as i said, i'm definitely no expert.sooo, second opinion fellow bonsai-ers please!

someone who's tried something like this before?

[Jamie]

just realising that i posted a semi finished virtual, i should really check what i do first lol. here is how it is at the moment. and i am trying to get movement in the apex, i need to get some thicker wire to acheive this tho.
i am in the process of getting the ramification, i am just trying to create something more dynamic with this tree

[Jamie]

i'm no expert but from the looks of your 'shopped image'
it seems like you plan on cutting right to the core of your tree and in my opinion your foliage at the tip of that bonsai is likely to die on cutting that deep into your tree.
If you REALLY want to create a twin trunk, the shari seems like a safer way to gradually ease your tree into the 'change', although the same result for the tip of your tree may still occur.

but as i said, i'm definitely no expert.sooo, second opinion fellow bonsai-ers please!

someone who's tried something like this before?

yes cutting into the core is the plan to create a twin trunk, and that is why i have asked about doing this in stages. from shari to hollow to all the way through.
which part of the tree do you think will suffer from cutting that far?? i am curious to this as elms are renowned for flushes of new growth after hard prunes. now i know this is a bit more drastic then a hard prune but you bring up a good point of die back, this is another question that i need answered before i go into this.

bodi- this isnt a patience thing, what i am trying to create is more taper and interest. i have been pondering where to go with this one for about a year or more now.. i still want the ramification i just think the step from where the original chop has left to much of a step and i am hoping not to go much taller with this tree i would like to keep it roughly the height it is now, to create the taper i would have to grow the leader alot hight to suit the tree..

[MelaQuin]

I think you could eliminate the tree's powerful trunk with the carving you envisage. Yes, you can do it. But you have a tree with a really lovely trunk as it is, is it really going to be profitable to try to make 2 trunks? You will end up with massive scarring, years to get it to sort out and you are violating the basic principle of 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'. What I would suggest is that you eliminate the hard cut across the top of the trunk by carving a small 'V' to give the top a bit more grace and taper. But beyond that I would not go on this tree. You have too much to lose as the trunk is really nice and just needs refining, not wholesale remodeling.

You can go into my post on 'Persimmon' where I removed 3/4ths of the second trunk BECAUSE it was too close to the main trunk. I could not remove it entirely without a huge unsightly scar and by hollowing it I removed it's visual strength and relegated it to second string. Your situation with the elm is nowhere near the same... you have a tree that only needs the cut modified by making a "V". Part of that you can do with sidecutters, just carefully cut to make a slightly off centre 'V' to create the look that the trunk divided to form into two branches at the top.

Also, look at your bottom branches... they are barring and I feel that one should be removed. In the majority of cases barring is very ugly and give the elm another year of growth and the natural thickening of the branches and you will have a big visual problem. Get rid of it now by judiciously selecting the best branch to remove and eliminating it. That's how I see it. It is your tree and your game... but you asked...

Elm V.jpg

Looking again at your photo.... each elm branch is set at a different angle, some going up, some going down. You need to unify the design by creating more harmony and if you start wiring your branches slightly downward you will improve the look of this tree as suddenly all parts will start pulling together. If you cannot wire the thicker right branch down then you can start wiring the foliage down to give the impression that the branch is going down as well.

This tree has a lovely trunk with strength and character. A minor alteration to the top will work wonders and leave you with a tree well on the way to being a show stopper. I would really advise against drastic carving where it is not warranted. You have too much to lose.

[bodhidharma]

dont need wire to change the angle of the apex. Need a tydown around the bottom of the pot a length of electrical wire will do. Using more wire , with some protection around the apex wrap more wire e around it , pull down and secure to the wire around the bottom of the pot,. it will bend as far as you want it to

[Jamie]

please dont take what i am saying the wrong way, this is why i have asked, i am seeking the information from experts. and people with experience of the likes. any help and advice i appreciate.
bodi- could you show me with a quick couple of lines etc on the pic where you would do this. thanks in advanced

mela- i see where you are coming from with this now. to take that lower branch of will that leave the left hand side bare???

[MelaQuin]

It will but elms bud everywhere and you stand a good chance of getting a new branch developing higher up than the bar. But if you wire the left branch down [the one above my selected removal] you will start to fill that space and as the tree develops and the foliage pads thicken and become more dominant you will get balance. The empty space can be effectively used as 'negative' space to compliment your design and if you do get a bud coming where you need it ... all the better. It is the practice of learning how your tree will develop in two, three, five years. But forget five years at the moment, think/plan a year ahead. With the branches moved downwards in unity, the branches thicker and padded heavily, you will find that today's empty space is tomorrow's space to emphasis your design.

This is one of the hardest things to learn and only comes with your own experience. We all make wretched mistakes because we work on how the tree looks NOW, but learning will move your sights to tomorrow, then next year and eventually a few years down the track. That makes developing a design easier because you have a good idea how the tree will develop.

elm V foliage.jpg

[FlyBri]

Gday Jamie!

I think we chatted about this the other night... That is a great stump you have, but the pre-trained leader is of concern: the way it has been brought up seems like the previous owner had tried to create a formal upright style, which is generally only seen in coniferous trees. In my humble opinion, a trunk chop on a deciduous tree provides a great opportunity the creation of movement and branching.

My plan for the tree is simple (as is Bodhidharma's): pull the right hand branch (the leader) down to the right, about 30° lower than it is now and grow the tree from there. You may choose to whack it into a larger pot for optimum growth.

Keep asking questions!

Fly.

[Jamie]

ahhh.. starting to become alot clearer..
work on the now to a future result. let the tree help you in the design..
what your saying is i am looking at something way to far to see what could happen..
if i develop the tree now for what it is the future possiblities are always there.
and yes the tree is budding all over the joint at the moment. this photo was taken about two weeks ago and there is a fair bit more foliage now. so what i have to do is stop, think and ponder some more before any action is taken.

i am appreciating this advice greatly people. thank you.

yes we did flybri, and the leader is disturbing me a bit too. if any of you could give me a visual of what you are thinking (melaquin thanks) i would appreciate it greatly!!

mela- i am liking the look of where you are going with this too. the options are now opening up for me. would like a few more ideas as my blinkers are now starting to come off and am seeing a bit out side the box with this one

[MelaQuin]

I don't know if it is the photograph or salts that are leaching out of the pot that is causing that white discolouration on the surface of your pot. I have been advised by a local bonsai guru that wiping the pot with WD40 will take that away. He assured me it would not hurt the tree. If it is salts leaching out it is because the pots are not fired high enough or long enough and are too porous. It is not the fault of the particular pot but the escalating cost of creating pots that is causing creation time to be minimised and the results are infuriating me and I'm sure others. I have not tried WD40 but it is worth a go.

[Jamie]

i am not sure of the white stuff either, but it wipes away quite easily just with a bit of elbow grease and some warm water

[FlyBri]

if any of you could give me a visual of what you are thinking (melaquin thanks) i would appreciate it greatly!!

Gday Jamie!

Getting late here (I get up early) so here's the best I can supply at the moment.

Jamie111_Ulmus_Sketch.jpg

Good luck, and keep the questions coming.

Fly.

[Jamie]

if any of you could give me a visual of what you are thinking (melaquin thanks) i would appreciate it greatly!!

Gday Jamie!

Getting late here (I get up early) so here's the best I can supply at the moment.

Jamie111_Ulmus_Sketch.jpg

Good luck, and keep the questions coming.

Fly.

thanks fly. thats where i thought you were talking about. i have been trying to put a bit of movement into it aswell but havent had much luck with that as of yet