JBP question: Not decandling but cutting back

[Ces]

Hey guys,

So I have recently made my first steps into the world of pine bonsai. Its taken me a few years but after a recent trip to japan I couldn't hold out anymore. So I've bought a couple of JBP trees that are all ready for their first styling and after a fair bit of research I cant quite get the definitive answer I want, so I'm hoping the members here can help...

How far can I cut back a pine branch without it dying? Obviously you must leaves some needles on the branch but how young do they have to be and roughly how many pairs would be considered the minimum? There is endless information out there about decandling and branch grafting but I cant find an answers to this question. Everything deals with either terminal bud management or how to graft branches well behind the foliage mass.

So, for example (excuse my crappy paint diagram) with the below branch...

pine bonsai cutting.png

Is it possible to cut back to here?

pine bonsai cutting 1.png

or as would be preferably in many cases, here?

pine bonsai cutting 2.png

I know these questions get asked a lot about pines but as I said, I couldnt find an answer to this.

Thanks for the help guys. Again.

Cheers,

Ces.

[MoGanic]

Hi Ces,

A good question and one that I'm sure will harbor many responses.

From my limited knowledge on pines, you should be able to cut back to any point with new buds safely. Relying on the dormant buds under the needles might be a little risky as the tree may simply redirect energy from that branch to other branches rather than to these dormant buds.

In other words, try to get buds with needle growth before you cut back.

Uchi had some interesting advice on this matter too, he would leave 2 or 3 pairs of needles around where he wanted a bud the following year, and pluck all the other old needles off, leaving the new needles for the current year only. This meant that the auxin from the remaining pairs of old needles would still be present in the location at which the new buds are required. This is slightly risky as the buds are not guarantee'd in these locations, although from the tree I worked on with him, it did work quite well as the following year (i.e. the growth season after the work was completed), a majority of the area's where old needles were left turned into buds and subsequently needle growth out of these buds.

At this point, I cut back to these buds and they've continued to grow as expected.

In summary, leave old needles where you want buds lower on a branch - the old needles contain the auxin required to promote dormant buds to grow. Trim the remaining old needles off by whatever means you usually use (I usually pluck, just because it looks neater and often I don't require buds in these locations - a little risky, but a number of people will cut the needles leaving approx 5 to 10 mm at the base to ensure that the dormant buds under them are not damaged through plucking). The following year, where you have left the old needles, you should see some bud growth, at which point you would trim the new foliage above the new buds on the branch to redirect energy to your precious new buds.

That's about the extent of my knowledge!

Cheers,
Mo

[kez]

Hey Ces,

Here's what I work off of regarding cutting back pines,

most of the time when pruning (and candle cutting for that matter) if you are looking ahead to the second flush then you would normally cut back to last years needles. Normally I would assume that on a trained tree you wouldn't have needles still on the tree that are older than this as it would not work in the design but on an untrained tree you could cut back harder in theory (don't forget that pines only hang on to their needles for 3 years though).

Normally when I get a new pine I clean out most of the old needles and reduce what I am keeping to the number of needles on the weakest significant branch, but no less than 8-10 pairs. This will ensure that the tree's energy distribution is evened out but the tree still keeps its health and vigour. I have just worked on a new tree and due to the time of year I treated my work much like candle pruning, I thinned out the needles, removed unwanted branches, and then cut back to last years growth on the branches I was keeping. This will not only result in me being able to do the initial styling, but also result in a good second flush so as to give a head start on branch development.

I wouldn't make it practice to cut back past functioning needles as this will most likely lead to the death of the branch. You may get budding on the stump (I have a couple of pines that have done this in this growing season) but I wasn't looking to use the branch and it would be very hit and miss I would think.

Looking at your picture, is this a rough sketch of the branch you are working with? for my mind you could theoretically cut at either line (first pic would be safer) but either way I think it would be pointless. If you cut where you have indicated in the first pic, you will get a flush of buds at the cut sight, then most people would select two and remove the rest, this will result in a fork like the one you have just cut off, but a further year down the track

In the case of the second pic, it's much the same as above, cut at the line, buds emerge, select 2, remove the rest, the only difference is you have now removed 2 years of rammification and will just need to rebuild it.

Hope this helps

Kerrin

[treeman]

How far can I cut back a pine branch without it dying?

Very much depends on the age and vigor of the tree.....young and vigorous--cut back more etc etc.

Is it possible to cut back to here?

pine bonsai cutting 1.png

See above

or as would be preferably in many cases, here?

pine bonsai cutting 2.png

See above

If it has just been lifted (1 year ago) from a growing bed you may cut back 50mm branches with needles and expect shoots.
You must judge for yourself how far you can go. Also if you cut back very hard, don't do it all at once. Leave 12 months between attacks.

[Ces]

Thank you very much everyone. Really helpful responses and pretty much exactly what I was looking for.

Kerrin, I see your point the branch depicted is more of an exemplar and doesn't accurately depict the long internodal length that is present on some of these ground grown trees. I'm not looking to ramify the branches so much as to bring their growth back closer to the trunk and then ramify. I would rather do this by cutting back to old neeedles if I can than by setting grafts.

In terms of determining the age and health of the tree the first one I'm looking at working is less than 10 years old (has just started to bark up) and appears to be very vigorous. I would say it was lifted within the last 18 months. I'm looking at a literati style for this one and styling will involve removing arounfd 65% of the branches. Will this push vigour to dormant buds under old needles if I also cut these branches back (not all will need to be cut back hard) or will it just be too much for the tree?

Thanks again guys.

Ces

[shibui]

You can cut at either of the points you have indicated and should get new buds from the needles below the cut - as long as those remaining needles are still healthy. With a vigorous tree you may even get some buds from the bare wood below if You are lucky.

I'm looking at a literati style for this one and styling will involve removing arounfd 65% of the branches. Will this push vigour to dormant buds under old needles if I also cut these branches back (not all will need to be cut back hard) or will it just be too much for the tree?

With a healthy tree removing 65% of the foliage should not worry it. Removing that much may cause dormant buds to shoot but that is unpredictable. When there are active buds above the site buds often won't form because the active buds above are sending auxins down the sap stream that suppress new buds. Removing all the buds above is the surest way of getting new buds to grow.

[Ces]

You can cut at either of the points you have indicated and should get new buds from the needles below the cut - as long as those remaining needles are still healthy. With a vigorous tree you may even get some buds from the bare wood below if You are lucky.

I'm looking at a literati style for this one and styling will involve removing arounfd 65% of the branches. Will this push vigour to dormant buds under old needles if I also cut these branches back (not all will need to be cut back hard) or will it just be too much for the tree?

With a healthy tree removing 65% of the foliage should not worry it. Removing that much may cause dormant buds to shoot but that is unpredictable. When there are active buds above the site buds often won't form because the active buds above are sending auxins down the sap stream that suppress new buds. Removing all the buds above is the surest way of getting new buds to grow.

Thank you, Shibui. I feel confident enough to give it a styling this weekend now. See below the not so great phone photo...

Thanks again everyone.

literati pine.jpg

I'll start its own thread after its first styling.

Cheers guys,

Ces.

[Neli]

I personally would cut up to here. BUT BUT BUT: Wire the branches, remove branches you dont need, select a leader, perhaps leave a sacrifice branch, The idea is that the places where you want back budding get enough light, since if they are shaded chances are they will not.
here is also an example for you. Remember my pine is shohin and an old one, so everything on it is small.

[lakepipes]

Me personally,
i'm a big fan of having at least 1 season on those new buds before cutting back to them, after all you want them to live!
By all means clean out old needles to allow light in to give the new buds plenty of opportunity to grow and strengthen and wire out your branches
The older buds at the end of the branch will draw strength through the branch and also feed the new growth, this is good, the old budding is good for growth.
Once the buds have some strength, then cut back to the new buds thus bringing in the foliage.
This ensures that you keep the vigor in the branch.

So my suggestion is give them a season.

just my

Mike

[Scott Roxburgh]

...So my suggestion is give them a season.

Mike, I'm not sure I understand correctly.

Are you referring to after the back budding has occurred and that we want to leave the buds a year to gain strength before cutting back to them?

Out of interest, I have attached some pics of a JBP that I cut back past the current years growth, some into three year old growth. For those that are unaware, needle buds appear different to adventitious buds, they tend to be much finer and take longer to come out.

The first is adventitious, the other two are needle buds. The difference in vigour is due to the number of needles. The fewer needles, the weaker the extension. Some of the needle buds were very weak and will need at least a season to grow before cutting back to them.

image.jpg

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