forcing growth towards JBP trunk

[badabing888]

Hi All,

I was wondering if someone could jump in and give me some advice on how to further force growth towards the trunk on branching.

This particular tree is about 4 years old and is still very much in the development of trunk phase.
At the same time and attempt is being made to keep the growth compact in particular low down.

It was decandled / needle thinned boxing day and the summer candles are progressing nicely. So the question where to next? And with what timing?

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[kcpoole]

If mine i would let those inner shoots on the low branch develop for a year, then wire them to shape.
the branch outside of them you can keep as a sacrifice or remove

The upper ones you need to cut back the end growth at the top to force the buds at the Needles to shoot.

Ken

[shibui]

You can usually only get shoots on pines where there is needles. The dormant buds at the base of needles will usually only shoot if there is no buds above them so to get new shoots you need to prune. Cut right back and just leave the needles where you want shoots to grow. You can prune this way at any time of year. This late and the new shoots probably won't start to grow until spring but they will be stronger than if you prune next summer. Personally I'd prune now because if those remaining needles are already a couple of years old they ill drop in autumn then you have no chance.

If there are no needles where you want shoots you need to resort to removing the whole section and growing it again from a lower branch but grow it more carefully so there are plenty of shoots this time.

Where you have small shoots that you want to encourage, remove most of the strong shoots above it on the branch or trunk. Lower shoots don't develop well if there are strong ones closer to the tips.

[Neli]

Just remember : Light = light +light= back budding, if you do the above!
Fertilize regularly, for better back budding.

[GreenThumb]

Further to Shibui's advice, it is worth picking up Leong Kwongs book 'Pine Bonsai in the temperate climate' if you can. If I recall rightly, the best time is summer, full sun is essential as is a healthy tree, and assuming you have needles on the section that you want to back bud: remove all the needles on the underside of the branch, most of the one's pointing upwards, and around half the side shoots, ensuring you leave the needle sheaths on the needles you pluck from the side in situ. Remove the buds at the tip. Should see some back budding in Autumn.

[badabing888]

Awesome thanks guys!

You've confirmed what i thought,

im going to wire to shape the lower shoots on the lower branch and then cut back to them once they are more established.

I guess the last question i have is how hard can i cut back the top branches without killing the tree, this is part of the reason why i was not brave enough to take them right back when i did basic candle cutting this year.

So i guess the question would be

1. how hard can i cut back the branches in the upper section of the tree?
2. Can i do it to all branches at the same time or should i do it mostly to the ones that seem to be getting away and stagger it?
3. Is it safe this time of year after candle cutting on boxing day as its started to shoot heavily new buds already?

Regards

Daniel

[shibui]

how hard can i cut back the branches in the upper section of the tree?

I thought we went through this? You can cut any branch back to where there is needles - upper, lower, ANY branch.

Can i do it to all branches at the same time or should i do it mostly to the ones that seem to be getting away and stagger it?

I usually cut back all branches at the same time so that all the buds that grow will be the same size and grow the same. Always cut back upper branches when pruning lower ones or it is possible that all the energy will be diverted to stronger growing upper branches and lower ones may not shoot or grow well.

Is it safe this time of year after candle cutting on boxing day as its started to shoot heavily new buds already?

The trees I decandled a few weeks earlier have plenty of well grown buds now. They put out new buds quite some time ago. Wondering why yours are slow or maybe it is just your description/ perception.
I'm sure it would have been better to cut right back the first time. Your tree has now wasted quite a bit of stored energy to make all the new buds that you now want to cut off. I cannot examine your tree personally and I don't know how well you look after it - feed water, etc. From the photos it looks healthy enough so would probably still manage to make new buds if you cut again but I don't want to take personal responsibility when so much info is not available.
It is possible that cutting back now the new buds won't show until spring anyway. It is getting a bit close to autumn. Might be better to wait and cut back late winter or early spring when you will get stronger shoots anyway and the tree will have recovered a bit from decandling. The risk is that some of the lower needles may drop before then. Much of bonsai culture is not an exact science - so many variables with living plants. Only you can make the decision to cut with the information you have available.

[badabing888]

how hard can i cut back the branches in the upper section of the tree?

I thought we went through this? You can cut any branch back to where there is needles - upper, lower, ANY branch.

Sorry i did a poor job of explaining that, i mean't in the context of it already being decandled a few months ago.But your response helped clear it up regardless

Awesome! cheers that's what i thought to try and keep the energy balanced.

No worries what i mean't was it has put out many many buds since the decandle, and going back over it appears a few of the buds i thought may only be needle buds are going to form branches close to the trunk so taking ur words into account it may be worth leaving it and cutting it back late winter so any new buds form at the end of the cut and i can continue to grow the branching from there. In hindsight i should have just done this in one swoop during the decandling period!
All good i would never expect anyone to offer anymore then general advice over a forum, as you stated many variables involved and without actually seeing something and assessing it there is alot of guess work involved.