Japanese Black Pine - Needle Plucking

[xIIRevoEvoS]

So I have a raw JBP that I bought at Megumi 1 month ago and would like to clean up the needles up before I repot in 2-3 months time. Any pointers on where to start off
Need guidance

[xIIRevoEvoS]

[John Henry]

For the best advice join a club

[xIIRevoEvoS]

For the best advice join a club

Can't actually join clubs because I'm currently studying to become an apprentice mechanic and its not the right time of day/week for lessons.

[kez]

For the best advice join a club

With respect, I have to say I disagree with this comment, while I agree that joining a club is invaluable, I think that as a response to someones request for advice it is throwaway at best, and does nothing for the OP.

If people can't ask for advice on here, or instead of sharing knowledge the response is "go and join a club", then this site turns into nothing more than a picture gallery, and in most cases unless trees are of the highest quality, threads with people sharing pictures of there work are generally a one sided convo.
Lets get our act together shall we, or this country will forever be full of beginners.

Anyway, with regards to the OP's question,

This is why pines are difficult trees to understand initially, and it does help to have someone who knows them to take you through the finer points in the beginning, in this instance knowing what the tree needs is one thing, more importantly you need to know what you want to do with the tree and where you want it to go. Are you looking to develop thickness and grow it on? in this case, leave it to grow, more needles equals more growth.

Do you want to style it? in this case you need to see what you have, so you would remove older needles up to this years growth to see what branches you have, and then you can style based on that.

Do you want buds back closer to the trunk? in this case you need to slow down the strong areas and balance the energy, then open the tree up to light over winter to allow dormant buds to activate.

The difficult thing with pines is if they are left to run, they will grow up and out, and once you lose needles on an area of a branch it is difficult to bring the growth back, not impossible, but difficult. This means that to allow the tree to thicken but preserve branch options at the same time you need to know how to go about it, when to cut, what to cut etc. Pines aren't hard once you know what your doing, but there's a bit to know.

My process when I buy a pine and do a first styling (bear in mind I usually work on trees with more development than this one in terms of age and size, and better people than me have grown them up to this point) is to thin the tree out and take the needles on branches I wish to keep down to the number of needles on the weakest significant branch (but no less than 8-10 pairs), this will mean that the tree should send out energy evenly when it puts on growth and this is the first step towards refinement. This can be done any time of the year, and will also help to set the tree up for winter to maximize light and air penetration, and allow you to see what you are working with.

From there you would go about your regular maintenance routine as the tree develops. This wouldnt apply for a tree that is being grown on though, so may or may not be relevant.

Hope this helps, at least a little in any case

Kerrin

[xIIRevoEvoS]

Well when I bought this pine about a month ago, I had a look at the current JBP Megumi had and looked at the taper,Nebari etc... This was one of the pine I felt it was the right candidate and had a character to the trunk movement
So far I would like to thicken the trunk up (currently the size of 50c coin width), would like to have slightly dense foliage and a clean up + wiring.
Clean up on needles is where I'm stuck at the moment. How far do I pluck from point A (Trunk branch) to point B (New Shoot/Exisitng buds and needles/old needles)

http://bonsaibark.com/wp-content/upload ... 00x480.jpg - Something like this with the current movement of the trunk

[xIIRevoEvoS]

If I was to let it grow - is it best to wire the branches or leave it naturally?

[squizzy]

Funny I was just chatting to steven at the market day yesterday and saying some of us older members probably need to get back on here and contribute to discussions. Its a forum after all right.

Its a difficult question to answer Allen as there are so many variants like has been pointed out. John Henry is probably right on the money when he says "For the best advice join a club". So what you learn on here will not be the best way to learn about pines but you can still learn plenty.

First thing is maybe look back at some old JBP threads and see what you can learn from them.

However because we all need to participate here lets start a bit of discussion on here like Kez has said.

If you were to let it grow there is certainly merit in wiring branches for a few reasons.

1. To get them into a position where they receive more light which will equal more growth.

2 To wire some appropriately positioned branches down while they are still flexible.

3 to hold sacrifice branches out of the road ( also out of the way of light)whilst your other branches grow.

I am very much an amateur when it comes to pines so I don't feel comfortable giving any more advice then this on wiring branches to let it grow.

Pines are fairly daunting at first but as you kill a few you learn a lot.

Lets hope some more experienced JBP growers chime in.

Squizz

[xIIRevoEvoS]

Funny I was just chatting to steven at the market day yesterday and saying some of us older members probably need to get back on here and contribute to discussions. Its a forum after all right.

Its a difficult question to answer Allen as there are so many variants like has been pointed out. John Henry is probably right on the money when he says "For the best advice join a club". So what you learn on here will not be the best way to learn about pines but you can still learn plenty.

First thing is maybe look back at some old JBP threads and see what you can learn from them.

However because we all need to participate here lets start a bit of discussion on here like Kez has said.

If you were to let it grow there is certainly merit in wiring branches for a few reasons.

1. To get them into a position where they receive more light which will equal more growth.

2 To wire some appropriately positioned branches down while they are still flexible.

3 to hold sacrifice branches out of the road ( also out of the way of light)whilst your other branches grow.

I am very much an amateur when it comes to pines so I don't feel comfortable giving any more advice then this on wiring branches to let it grow.

Pines are fairly daunting at first but as you kill a few you learn a lot.

Lets hope some more experienced JBP growers chime in.

Squizz

Any advice will be good Squizz since we are all learning
But regarding point 3., what do you mean by

to hold sacrifice branches out of the road ( also out of the way of light)whilst your other branches grow.

I do have a branch at the trunk near the soil line 'anti clockwise 3-4 image'

Better for me to ask questions on forums but also experimenting personally as I cannot actually join clubs since I am studying but bonsai classes aren't in the right time/day.

[squizzy]

Hi Allen,

I cant see the one you are referring too but I mean if you were growing a sacrifice main branch that blocked light to smaller branches there would be no point leaving it in a position which would block light from getting to branches that you want to keep with the future shape of the tree in mind. Does that make sense?????

If the one you are referring to is lower then that foliage then it probably doesn't need to be wire out of the road.

I will try and show you a large sacrifice branch on one of my seedlings that I am referring to.

Squizz

[shibui]

If your aim is to thicken the trunk I would not be plucking needles. Removing needles limits the food the tree can produce and therefore growth of the trunk.

In the growing phase I prefer to let pines grow as long as they like for a full season then cut back hard leaving just a few needles. That will force new buds as low as possible. Then allow those buds to grow free for a year or 2 and cut back again until the trunk has matured enough. Then is the time to start decandling and needle plucking to get ramification and shorter growth.

If part of the tree is bare and will not produce buds you can cut back to a lower branch and regrow the upper part of the tree.

[Grant Bowie]

Joining a club is good advice as a starter.

Clubs often have "old hands" who know everything and can give you some good clues and advice.

Sometimes however the " old hands" haven't learnt a thing in the last 30 years and are talking crap.

Look at the trees that are being produced and take advice from those that produce the best bonsai in your opinion.

Also have a look at the many threads on the various subjects on Ausbonsai. Most of it has been covered before.

Also attend the annual conventions and seminars.

Grant

[squizzy]

[squizzy]

So If this leader where impeding light from getting to the growth down low I could imagine wiring it out of the road would help. I dont intend keeping that leader in the future style of the tree so I could wire it anywhere if needed.

As it is it doesn't impede any light so I am happy to leave it

Squizz

[xIIRevoEvoS]

So If this leader where impeding light from getting to the growth down low I could imagine wiring it out of the road would help. I dont intend keeping that leader in the future style of the tree so I could wire it anywhere if needed.

As it is it doesn't impede any light so I am happy to leave it

Squizz

Kind of got the idea. For example in this video link where Orlando is letting a new leader to grow while the bald cypress recovers its scaring.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Rnti04ZjTM
Correct me if I'm wrong refering to your image, so your pine seedling has all the needles removed from 'sunnyside to gladesville' (sacrifice branch) and the top part has new shoots/needle will grow for ever until the bottom part 'phillip to number 2 has thicken to your desired size!