JBP - When to work on them

[Hatch]

Hi all

I have two neglected JBP's that I have been too chicken to work on. I got them from a Bonsai nursery back in 2009 and more or less planted them out into larger pots to let them grow.
I have read quite a lot on pines but still wary of how to train and style them. I got to them a few weeks ago and thinned out all the old needles to open it up and get light in.

Can anyone advise me from their experience when is the best time to restyle. I will be looking to get some back buds going in places as the tree s looking a little spindly.
The times i have had a go at it, some branches have died back too far or when pinching candles out some have also died back. It seems to me pines are very different beasts to other species and I am afraid to make a mess of them. Hence my procrastination.

I live in coastal South west Australia so the climate is quite mild and this autumn has been quite mild with winter just beginning to set in.

Any advice would be greatly received.

[kcpoole]

Hi Hatch
I have split this post out from Kez's progression thread so it does not take his own off topic..

I use this wiki page as my reference and especially like Ryan Neils idea sna methods near the bottom.
https://www.ausbonsai.com.au/wiki/index. ... Black_Pine

There is a link near the bottom to Shibuis thread on it.
It is simple and concise which suits me

Spring: Feed well to strengthen the tree and make buds grow strongly

Mid summer: Cut candles - later candle cutting means less time to grow new ones so new ones will be smaller with shorter needles.

Autumn: Fertilize normally to strengthen the tree.

Winter: Nothing to do in winter.

Ken

[Jimbomelville]

Ken, I'm told by other bonsai enthusiasts that, unlike Japan, when it comes to our climate & JBP we have the benefit of two growing seasons each year,
Do you agree?

[dansai]

Hi Hatch.

Pines are not difficult, but you do have to do regular maintenance at times through the year which is different for what stage of development it's in. There are things you can do to get back budding and best results are achieved if your tress are strong and healthy. From what you have said your trees are probably not as healthy as they could be.

When were they last repotted?

Do you feed them? How much?

Some photos of the trees if you can will help us give more specific advice.

The link to the wiki page that ken provided will get you a range of info. This thread is a good one that while not exactly your situation gives some great advice in how to think about what techniques to apply to a tree at different stages.

[dansai]

Ken, I'm told by other bonsai enthusiasts that, unlike Japan, when it comes to our climate & JBP we have the benefit of two growing seasons each year,
Do you agree?

Most definitely. We remove candles in summer from developed trees so as to get a second flush with shorter needles and shoots.

I have some that in the last month have started extending buds slightly and even had some needles, although not fully opened. Although its turned a bit cooler here and been overcast for over a week they will probably stop now until spring.

[shibui]

I am surprised that cutting candles has caused branches to die. Normally they produce at least 1 replacement bud. Maybe your candle cutting is different? or maybe your trees are just very unhealthy? or maybe you have them in unsuitable conditions and it was not the pruning that did it? I'd need to know more to be able to guess at the problem.

To produce back buds the trees need to be very vigorous and healthy. Start feeding now for spring. If your trees are not well then try feeding weekly all winter but at least fortnightly. If they have not been repotted for a few years, water and fert does not penetrate the root ball easily so try soaking the pot in fert solution at least every month so it gets right into the roots and fertilise normally in between. Depends on the state of the tree. Maybe repotting to get it growing would be the first step?

I guess you understand that you must always leave healthy needles on every shoot for new buds to form.

You can prune and restyle a pine at any time of year. Pruning in spring and summer will produce new buds almost immediately. If pruned in autumn and winter new buds will be slow to form but should start to grow in spring.

[Hatch]

Hi All,

I finally got around to loading some pics of my two pines that I would like your help on. These pics were taken early june which can be classed as late Autumn in my region. We are now well into winter and small candles and new needles are beginning to form. I note one is beginning to flower as well.

I would suggest the pine labeled as 1.2 & 1.3 is the healthiest of the two and I like the movement and its nebari.

They have not been repotted for a few years now and they get feed during winter/spring. I feed then with a good covering of pelletised chook manure 3-4 times a year and a seaweed solution throughout spring and summer then dropping of during the cooler months. Prior to taking the photos I did remove a lot of older, dead needles which all came away very easily and opened the tree up very well.

Any suggestions on how to get the ball rolling?
Most of my other bonsai are Deciduous or Ficus so pines are a bit foreign to me.

Cheers

Hatch

[shibui]

I can see some white stuff on the trunk of 1 tree. On pines that is usually Pine Bark Adlejig which is a pest that sucks sap and can seriously debilitate pines. It looks like tiny pieces of cotton wool or white mould on the bark. Rogor is a nasty systemic insecticide but seems to be the only thing that really kills them. Treat both trees in case some have got onto the other one.

Your pines are getting long and leggy. That is no good. These 2 are well past growing phase and need to have growth controlled by candle cutting each year to stimulate back buds. I would recommend cutting all shoots except very weak ones back to leave just 6-8 pairs of needles. You should get new shoots growing from the remaining needles and, if they are strong enough, you should get a few back buds on bare wood below. You desperately need more inner buds to make branches from. If you leave them alone they will just keep getting longer and leggier with increasing bare base of branches.

I would prune these now so that all spring energy goes into pushing lots of strong new buds. Pruning later in spring will give smaller but often fewer and weaker buds which is desirable on a well maintained tree but not what you need at the moment.

[dennismc]

Hi Hatch

There are almost as many techniques for growing JBP as there are growers of them!

Climate plays a very important part on how they grow. In Sydney we have ideal conditions for growing JBP ie 4 definite seasons, 3 of which are relatively warm. As a result we can get continuous growth for up to 8-9 months each year.

Most of the techniques recommended overseas (and often advocated in Oz) are designed for totally different climatic conditions. Over 30+ years of growing JBP I have developed a set of guidelines based on my experience and genuine botanical principles. I also teach these techniques to my students at the School of Bonsai and have had plenty of positive feedback. They r too long and detailed to repeat here. The techniques are set out here on Ausbonsai (do a site search if u r interested), or, if u email me I will send a copy back.

Someone mentioned the "white stuff" insects that sometime infect JBP. Often if the branches get increased sunlight through them the insects will disappear without further treatment.

regards
Dennis Mc

[kcpoole]

I also teach these techniques to my students at the School of Bonsai and have had plenty of positive feedback. They r too long and detailed to repeat here. The techniques are set out here on Ausbonsai (do a site search if u r interested), or, if u email me I will send a copy back.

regards
Dennis Mc

Here is a Link to the article mentioned by Dennis
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3207&start=0

Hey Dennis you might want to book mark it so you can referr back to it

#hatch you might want to also check out the wiki pages on pines which has lots of info and links to pine threads on the site here too
https://www.ausbonsai.com.au/wiki/index.php?title=Pine


Ken

[Hatch]

Thanks to you all on my pines.

I know I have been slack on them which is due to my fear of killing a shoot or branch.
This weekend I will get an opportunity to work on the Adelgid, and a back budding strategy, will send pics.
Denis, I live in in the south west of W.A which also has four distinct seasons so I'll look up your guidelines and get in touch with you if that is OK.

Thanks again guys. I'll be back for more advice.

Cheers

Hatch

[Gerard]

Ken, I'm told by other bonsai enthusiasts that, unlike Japan, when it comes to our climate & JBP we have the benefit of two growing seasons each year,
Do you agree?

Most definitely. We remove candles in summer from developed trees so as to get a second flush with shorter needles and shoots.

I have some that in the last month have started extending buds slightly and even had some needles, although not fully opened. Although its turned a bit cooler here and been overcast for over a week they will probably stop now until spring.

It is important people do not get the wrong idea.
We do get a second flush if candles are cut in summer but this is not different in Japan. I believe this happens in nature the trees grow on the coastal regions of Japan which are subject to severe summer storms which will often destroy the fresh spring growth. By observing this the Japanese have developed techniques of removing the growth deliberately (candle cutting)
The difference in Australia with long growing seasons some people will achieve a third flush of growth

[Jow]

The other point to bear in mind is that Japan has a wider range of climatic variation than we do. They have almost Siberia in northern Hokkaido down to the equator tropics of Okinawa and Guam. That said you only tend to see black pines being grown in areas with suitable climates.
That's not to say you can't grow black pines in the tropics but best results are gained in areas with distinct seasons.

[Scott Roxburgh]

IMO, this is the best source of info on JBP that you will find for free:
http://bonsaitonight.com/?s=black+pine

In addition there are Boon's JBP dvds, four in total, covering all you need to know and they are very easy to rewatch.
http://www.bonsaiboon.com/pages/shoppin ... etail.html

[Hatch]

Guys,

My trees have not been repotted for a few years now so would be quite root bound. Am I right in assuming the pruning to get back budding as per shibui recommends would be still OK?
The soil is wettable so I will give it a seaweed drench followed by chook pellets on top followed by pruning this weekend..

Any thoughts?

Cheers

Hatch