Back Pine soil Mix

[Bonsaiforest]

Hi to all found this soil recipe for black pines on the Sydney City Bonsai club newsletter page... as I'm not sure about the best mix to use for my young BP's do you think this is worth giving it try...just a little unsure about the coir-peat and the chicken pellets. Wondering if this is a safe bet or not. No offence to any enthusiast's from SydneyCity Bonsai Club just curious. What do the rest of you all use?

STORY OF A JAPANESE BLACK PINE & BONSAI SOIL MIX RECIPE
EASY RIDERS SEEK HEAT RELIEF

BONSAI SOIL MIX RECIPE

8 x scoops of washed gravel
2 x giant scoops of coir-peat
1 x scoop of standard Chicken Manure Pellets

Mix well and add sufficient water so the mix is damp but not wet.
CRUSHED GRAVEL (SCREENINGS)
Available from Crystal Building Supplies, 13 Crystal St, Petersham,
near Queen St.
This must be washed until water runs clear; before using. It is
$6.50 a bag which will fill half an old style garbage bin [not a
wheelie bin]
EASY WETTTA COIR-PEAT BRICK
Plain, NO added nutrients, about $1.70 at Bunnings. Expand it in
water as per directions.
YATES STANDARD PELLETS
Chicken manure, no added chemicals, available at Bunnings in 25
kilo bags, about $28. There are no smaller bags of basic pellets
without additives [chemicals] that I can find.

[dennismc]

Hi

There are almost as many soil mixes for bonsai as there are bonsai-ists. For my 2 cents worth I have been using the following mix (in Sydney) on my JBP (indeed on all of my trees) for in excess of 30 years without any problems. Indeed they have thrived under this regime.

Ingredients:
1 part of a good quality potting mix
1 part of River sand
Whatever fertiliser u prefer, i use a slow release pelleted fertiliser - preferably one with trace elements added
Some blood and bone. The blood and bone is for sweetening the soil for the soil bacteria, etc.

I thoroughly mix the potting mix and the river sand and store for future use.
At time of of use i add a handful of blood and bone and mix, then i add pelleted fertiliser and again mix thoroughly.
Not essential but occasional supplementary feeding with a liquid fertiliser is beneficial.

Hope this is helpful

Dennis Mc

[kcpoole]

As Dennis has said, So many different ides it is not funny

I use my Diatomite / Zeolite Mix on all my trees.
I only use organic ferts on mine so put nothin gin the soil.

The mix you describe is similar to what Koreshoffs used and the tree i purchased from them was in what looked like gravel and far too heavy for my liking.

JBP need a mix that drains well, and as long it provides that requirement, anything will work

Ken

[shibui]

I'm with both Dennis and KC. I use a standard mix on all my trees both developing and in bonsai pots but I get it made up in bulk. From memory 7 parts 4-6 mm pine bark, 3 parts propagating sand (around 4-6mm) with added zeolite, slow release iron, slow release nitrogen and trace elements. I then add osmocote when I use it.

What this thread actually tells us is that pines grow well in a range of mixes. There is no one best pine (maple, juniper, etc) mix.

My question is how can you replicate the mix you have found. It uses an undefined measuring system (giant scoop). How much bigger than a scoop is a giant scoop?

[Bonsaiforest]

I'm not really familiar with diatomite and zeolite... What are the benefits of using these & are they easily sourced in Sydney?

[thoglette]

I'm not really familiar with diatomite and zeolite... What are the benefit

Use The Search, Luke! Lots of info already typed into ausbonsai

[JaseH]

I just checked the wiki but its a bit light on as far as soil info goes - so this might help?

One thing to get your head around is that our trees don't need 'soil' as such, they just need a medium to provide the ideal environment for growth and health. This ideal environment can vary depending on the species but generally, for roots to grow and be healthy, they need a moist environment(not wet), oxygen and nutrients(NPK and trace elements).

I had some experience with hydroponics before getting into bonsai and see a lot of similarities between hydroponic methods and the way bonsai is grown today, in that the soil medium is mostly or wholey in-organic and the nutrients are provided as a separate component to the soil medium(in hydroponics this is generally via the water). Organic soil components that provide nutrients usually work against us in that they stay too wet and break down over time to clog the medium. This all restricts O2 and water passage to the roots = not the best for plant health.

When we seperate the nutrient requirement from the medium, this allows us to then maximise the other requirements(moisture and O2).

The medium then that provides the ideal environment is one that holds some moisture without staying damp or too wet. If the medium is too damp, the O2 is quickly exhausted and cannot easily be replaced as there is no air movement through the medium to allow this. The roots don't like this and health will suffer. On the other hand if the medium is too dry and does not retain enough moisture then of course we have trouble keeping water up to the plant and risk them drying out. So the trick is to find a happy medium(see what I did there! )

Everyone's 'happy medium' is different - some people live in a dry hot environment, or they cannot water as regularly as others might so prefer a medium that retains a little more moisture to reduce the risk of drying out. Others live in wet environments or prefer to water and fertilise more often so will prefer a faster draining 'drier' mix which also maximises O2 to the roots. The trick is work out your happy medium - what best suits your environment and care regime that also provides maximum O2 to the roots. Once you understand this you can then analyse the characteristics of the various medium components thrown around these forums and start experimenting to find your 'happy medium'.

• Diatomite - Is all the rage because it holds a lot of moisture without staying 'wet'.

• Zeolite - Holds some moisture, not as much as diatomite so dries out quicker, but it has good cation exchange(holds onto plant nutrients well so provides some buffer for fertilisation)

• Composted & Sifted Pine Bark Nuggets - Holds lots of moisture but also stays wetter than diatomite so not as good for O2. Has good cation exchange so useful as a fertilisation buffer. Although this is organic it's still very useful if the other mediums dry out too quickly for you.

• Scoria/Pumice - Lots of O2 to the roots but doesnt retain moisture as well.

There are many others, other forum members can probably suggest or expand on, but you will need to experiment to see what combinations work for you. A good starting point might be 50/50 (Diatomite/Pine Bark Nuggets) and play around from there?

All this also assumes you want to maximise plant health and will water and fertilise regularly. If you cant or don't want to provide the extra attention to your trees need but would just prefer to leave them be more often then lean more towards the traditional potting mix but maybe add a little something from the list above to improve the drainage a little and get some more O2 to the roots.

Hope that helps?

[kcpoole]

I just checked the wiki but its a bit light on as far as soil info goes - so this might help?


Hope that helps?

Can you add all that to the Wiki ?
https://www.ausbonsai.com.au/wiki/index. ... onsai_soil

the Soil components are individually listed and described via links at the bottom too

this thread is linked of the diatomite wiki page, along with others.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8719&p=95695#p95695

Ken

[Reece]

I just checked the wiki but its a bit light on as far as soil info goes - so this might help?

One thing to get your head around is that our trees don't need 'soil' as such, they just need a medium to provide the ideal environment for growth and health. This ideal environment can vary depending on the species but generally, for roots to grow and be healthy, they need a moist environment(not wet), oxygen and nutrients(NPK and trace elements).

I had some experience with hydroponics before getting into bonsai and see a lot of similarities between hydroponic methods and the way bonsai is grown today, in that the soil medium is mostly or wholey in-organic and the nutrients are provided as a separate component to the soil medium(in hydroponics this is generally via the water). Organic soil components that provide nutrients usually work against us in that they stay too wet and break down over time to clog the medium. This all restricts O2 and water passage to the roots = not the best for plant health.

When we seperate the nutrient requirement from the medium, this allows us to then maximise the other requirements(moisture and O2).

The medium then that provides the ideal environment is one that holds some moisture without staying damp or too wet. If the medium is too damp, the O2 is quickly exhausted and cannot easily be replaced as there is no air movement through the medium to allow this. The roots don't like this and health will suffer. On the other hand if the medium is too dry and does not retain enough moisture then of course we have trouble keeping water up to the plant and risk them drying out. So the trick is to find a happy medium(see what I did there! )


Everyone's 'happy medium' is different - some people live in a dry hot environment, or they cannot water as regularly as others might so prefer a medium that retains a little more moisture to reduce the risk of drying out. Others live in wet environments or prefer to water and fertilise more often so will prefer a faster draining 'drier' mix which also maximises O2 to the roots. The trick is work out your happy medium - what best suits your environment and care regime that also provides maximum O2 to the roots. Once you understand this you can then analyse the characteristics of the various medium components thrown around these forums and start experimenting to find your 'happy medium'.

• Diatomite - Is all the rage because it holds a lot of moisture without staying 'wet'.

• Zeolite - Holds some moisture, not as much as diatomite so dries out quicker, but it has good cation exchange(holds onto plant nutrients well so provides some buffer for fertilisation)

• Composted & Sifted Pine Bark Nuggets - Holds lots of moisture but also stays wetter than diatomite so not as good for O2. Has good cation exchange so useful as a fertilisation buffer. Although this is organic it's still very useful if the other mediums dry out too quickly for you.

• Scoria/Pumice - Lots of O2 to the roots but doesnt retain moisture as well.

There are many others, other forum members can probably suggest or expand on, but you will need to experiment to see what combinations work for you. A good starting point might be 50/50 (Diatomite/Pine Bark Nuggets) and play around from there?

All this also assumes you want to maximise plant health and will water and fertilise regularly. If you cant or don't want to provide the extra attention to your trees need but would just prefer to leave them be more often then lean more towards the traditional potting mix but maybe add a little something from the list above to improve the drainage a little and get some more O2 to the roots.

Hope that helps?

Awesome post!

Thanks!

[Reece]

Diatomine and Zeolite are a lot lighter than soils and gravel hey?

This would also come in handy with larger trees?

[shibui]

Diatomine and Zeolite are a lot lighter than soils and gravel hey? This would also come in handy with larger trees?

That's correct but the flip side is that pots are lighter and more easily tipped over in wind = broken branches and broken pots occasionally.

[Reece]

Diatomine and Zeolite are a lot lighter than soils and gravel hey? This would also come in handy with larger trees?

That's correct but the flip side is that pots are lighter and more easily tipped over in wind = broken branches and broken pots occasionally.

Ahhh yes makes sense.....

[Homer911]

I'm not really familiar with diatomite and zeolite... What are the benefits of using these & are they easily sourced in Sydney?

I contacted Enfield and they said that they don't stock Zeolite anymore but they can order in some 1-2mm in!! I'm looking for about 5mm.

viewtopic.php?t=7073

Anyone know where else I can find some in the st.george area, Sydney?

[JaseH]

Can you add all that to the Wiki ?
https://www.ausbonsai.com.au/wiki/index. ... onsai_soil

Ken

Refined and added to the wiki.

https://www.ausbonsai.com.au/wiki/index. ... oil_Theory

I also added a bit about importance of fertilisation with inorganics.

[kcpoole]

I'm not really familiar with diatomite and zeolite... What are the benefits of using these & are they easily sourced in Sydney?

I contacted Enfield and they said that they don't stock Zeolite anymore but they can order in some 1-2mm in!! I'm looking for about 5mm.

viewtopic.php?t=7073

Anyone know where else I can find some in the st.george area, Sydney?

Dunno about down south but Ray Nesci stocks it in 2 different grades.

Ken