chinese elm stump advice on carving

[Jamie]

mel.. im sorry to worry you, it seems my bonsai vocabulary is limited..
what you explained about going around the wound to alow it to roll over is what i ment by carving, the advice on exposing the cambium slightly is helpful i didnt know that. where the chop is there is quite a bit of healing done already it has rolled up the stump so i think i am coing to have to "carve" (refining the wound) in under it a bit to get it to roll and fill over the scar, i was planning on hollowing the wound a bit to help with this too. to put your mind at ease i will take some close up shots of what i am talking about so i can show you what i mean..
i know it is hard to write explanations, like a mechanic trying to fix a car over a phone call. i do have all the best intentions for this tree.
and the "safety lip" on the branches i will be doing, just with the rough cut outs of the ugly left over bits have helped alot.
all the wood i have taken out has been dead for a while, some how whoever worked on this before i got it had this plan as the bark has wound callouses in the shape of a v to where the branches are. i will be refining the cut v and smoothing it off.
i hope this puts your mind at rest a bit. i wont be going to the extremes of the carving your examples have shown, none of that!

[Jamie]

OK!!! time for an update! i have finally gotten around to doing a rough cut out then got to do some smoothing off before my cheap a$# engraver tool that had dremel like parts decided to die so i need to get a new one, gonna get a proper one this time tho!
i think it is starting to come out realy well the taper is coming out and i have brought the leader over to the right more. ok less typing more showing
so here is the progress.
Mel- i think you will be happy with where i have taken this so far, it still needs more refinement but its getting there, i am happy i went this way

the bar branch on the bottom left is going to be taken off this weekend and i am going to set up a cutting with it, cant see the point in wasting it!

[Jamie]

a couple of other shots. size comparison and the top veiw, im thinking of changing "front" it will show more of the scar but with the foliage at the "back" not being present it opens up the trunk line.

[Chris]

it's looking great mate

[Jamie]

getting there mate.
still needs some more refinement, gotta get more hours in the day

[Jamie]

just going over my post i have realised how decieving this picture is..
the leader movement pic actually looks like it has a new branch coming from lower near the cut.. the branch (red arrow) it actually starts from the front(purple dot) follows the line of (aqua) and off th that side. maybe the top veiw shows this.. not sure. yep it does. top veiw branch from the right hand side in the "Y" shape. does this look like it could be a problem, or should i keep it there. there is a new bud that has broken and has about 6 leaves on it where the marked branch looks like its coming from the leader that would be of better placement i think...
am i making any sense?????
possibly not. hard to explain with flat pictures... if anyone gets me could they put there thoughts in on this?

[MelaQuin]

Good start but I find the apex is too far to the right and needs to come back a wee bit for balance.

If the tree is still as the last photos, you need to get a Dremel or small knob cutters and lower the heart wood to below the cambium. I would also cut the V a bit deeper to accentuate it since the healing will fill in and take the sharpness away. If you do not lower the centre wood, when the callous forms it will be raised and you will lose the sense of two branches forming at the apex and be back to a fairly flat cut. To my mind, a Dremel would be better as it will give you more delicacy of trimming away than knob cutters. The callous will develop about 2-3 mm thick and that's how deep you need to have that centre wood below the cut. You can use the Dremel to increase the depth of the V as well so you are not taking too much out of the sides. And don't worry about cutting into the growing wood... it's an elm... it will take it in its stride. And if you lower the heart wood you will have to ensure you create a small drainage path at the back so water does not sit on the cut area.

The stray branch growing across the front is hard to see but as I see your tree, the main branch development is going to be from the leader, not on the trunk, in order to best show that lovely base. Therefore you have two options. 1) Leave the branch at the moment to help the healing. Shoots coming from a wound produce more healing hormones and the wound seals faster. I don't like this because that branch is in the centre front and it will leave its own scar. 2) If the tree were mine I would remove that crossing branch. If more shoots develop around the wound leave them there until they harden off for that additional healing help, then remove them before they increase in size to leave more than a wound that will quickly heal. You can leave back branches on longer but I would be very careful how you handle the front view.

elm apex.JPG

I'm not sure if this is proving anything but you need to excavate to lower the dead wood so the callous can roll over it to form a natural extension of the existing bark. Think of your own body - a hole on your arm. You want the healing to be level with the existing skin, if the skin/bark is lower than the growing tissue it cannot roll over it satisfactorily and this is why some bonsai have lumps on the trunk where branch removal has not been done properly.

elm scar.JPG

And wire those branches down..... don't let them set in those ballerina positions.... looks like the tree is auditioning for Swan Lake.....

[paddles]

Trying to do this drawing with a mouse is like drawing in a mirror.... my hand does not do what my eye wants. However, I think that swinging the apex to the right will bring the tip over the centre of the trunk, continue the lovely sweep of the right trunk edge and when your branches are developed there will be harmony. The vertical yellow indicates apex over centre of trunk. The extra colour line in the right branch is how I would like to see it shaped but it could be hard if it is as thick as it looks. In that case you would have to go with the existing movement and 'lower' it with the foliage placement.

I have cut a small V in the underside of a thick elm branch.. just enough to move the branch down to where I wanted it. I then sealed the cut, wrapped it and left it for a couple of months. I barely cut to the centre of the branch but it was enough to give me the ability to move the branch without cracking it and there was no loss of vigour. This is something you could consider.. if not on your own then in a workshop situation with experienced advice. I do feel lowering the branch would improve the design if it is possible.

elm new apex.jpg

being a chinese elm, couldn't you just shorten, or totally remove the branch, and then wouldn't it in all likelyness, bud/shoot from more or less the same place? I know that it would take time to redevelope a branch there, but in the interests of the tree, wouldn't it be worth it?? (Just as a matter of interest? I'm looking at a similar problem with one of my trees)

[Jow]

http://bonsaijournal.com/elm-pinching.php

NIce article on building branches on elms.....

[MelaQuin]

Yes you can but trees are as perverse as humans and like as not it won't bud where you need it. If a new bud develops in the proximity I would treat that with kid gloves to develop it and once it was strong and looked like lasting the distance, THEN I would remove the thicker branch. But unless the not-quite-right branch is really bad or you are really a daredevil... I'd play a waiting game.

Mind you, when two experts with far FAR greater experience told me that my tree in question was good, leave it and just do a light trim, I brought it home and removed the total apical branch and two major lower branches, turned the tree back to front and am now in the process of developing a new tree from the same trunk. I know this tree well, a Melaleuca alternifolia, and I know it shoots everywhere... and it has. It is now just a matter of waiting until the shoots are sturdy before reducing the thick back branch to a stub and literally all but starting again. But again I stress, I know this tree - I have taken it from an under nourished gangly unkempt tree to a show winner. While it has long been my best tree it was growing to much out of line, too heavy, too wide. It was bite the bullet and do something dangerous or watch its quality deteriorate. I chose the 'chop it to hell' option and the two years it will take to redevelop the tree. If you want to do something similar with your elm... go for it. But you need to know the tree because I have a couple of elms that simply don't shoot on the trunks.

[Jamie]

hey mel! go to see ya back again.

yes the tree is still in the same condition as you see it, i havent done any more work, very similar to you i have been very busy!
i have intended on carving more out at the time i was doing it i managed to burn out the cheapo rotary tool i had. (like i said i shouldnt buy crap!)
everything you have said makes sense, i understand it fully.
the apex- i will bring it back a bit more upright while trying to keep it in the leaning position to the right, just add some more movement..right(not as in left and right but as in right?...lol did that make sense?) well as per the line you are thinking anyway.
that crossing branch across the front i can remove i dont think it will cause a major, it is still quite young. and there is a shoot growing on the apex branch where the branch is crossing so it will hopefully grow out strong(it has so far) and i can develop that as a branch.
with the front veiw i am thinking of doing a complete turn around !*) degrees, i think it might be a better "front".
will get a better photo asap to see what you think!

the carving section will be taken lower than the form of what you see, i understand what your saying with going lower than where the living tissue will grow over! it will create a smoother neater finish yes? right!

and i will get to wiring the asap, will have to watch closely though to make sure it doesnt cut in! and have to have a good look at the tree to decide on the "front veiw, hopefully have my new carving tool by then aswell so i can get into this one, im keen to get that wood down to help get it to heal better. i seen an online video by lindsay far about scar healing on a maple this would be similar to elms i presume so this should help too! this weekend hopefully i will get the time to work on this one.

jow thanks for the link will have a good read ASAP.

i will post more progress pictures as soon as i have them

regards jamie

[Jamie]

http://bonsaijournal.com/elm-pinching.php

NIce article on building branches on elms.....

this is a great little article jow. thanks for the link, it has given me some insight to getting better branching, i will need to adress this in the near future, i think i am still in development stages of this tree, but it shows how to create good ramification. thanks for the info!!

appreciate it mate!

[Jamie]

hey guys, done a little work this afternoon. got rid of a couple of branches (the crossing one) a few in the apex.
the apex has been pulled a bit more round to the left after the lean to the right. might need a bit more hey.
exuse the wiring, i cant get any thicker wire than 4 mm. it sucks. anyways, thought i would post a bit of an update.
still needs more carving, gotta get the tool to do it though.

regards jamie!

[Jamie]

after some major carving out today using a drill as my rotary tool till i get a proper one i didnt dare go any deeper, so what i am saying is i have done more work on it! but i will be leaving it now til i get the proper camera for one and a proper rotary tool for two!
until then, (which will be tomorrow when i wake up) i will get photos of where i am now, and then will need to wait for my rotary tool to refine and smooth off the cut out!
patience is a virtue but its killing me right now!

[kvan64]

Good work Jamie, I still fancy a split but have great respect for the pros' ideas and advice to go with carving. You are actually have a lot of patience. Probably a lot more than me. I am too spontaneous Just keep posting photos to update with progress. I don't have an elm in my collection and didn't particularly like elm but this project got my attention. Can't wait to see the end product.
Cheers
DK