young, developing JBP reduction pruning

[shibui]

We have had lots of questions about cutting back pines in the development stage.
Here's one I did yesterday

jbp reduction 1.JPG

It has lots of branches coming from one place on the trunk where it was cut back previously

jbp reduction 4.JPG

If these are left the trunk will thicken at that point so remove most of them.

Cut back long shoots leaving just a few pairs of needles so new shoots will form

jbp reduction 6.JPG

jbp reduction 9.JPG

These shoots were cut back last July. You can see how new buds have grown from some of the remaining needles

jbp reduction 5.JPG

[kcpoole]

Excellent post Shibui and thanks for showing us how to develop these pines

Linking this thread to the Wiki page on Pines now

Ken

[Neli]

Thank you...I am getting a bit confused....how is this connected to that post on RN about black pines? Why do we cut the candles if we can prune it just like that? What is the significance/difference between the two methods? I dont understand. Sorry

[63pmp]

Thanks for the post Neil,

I just want to ask, what effect does timing have on chopping? Say in November as opposed to July.

Paul

[kcpoole]

Hi there and Neli and Paul, remember the difference in the trees ages.

Shibui here is describing methods to use when growing a young JBP either in a large pot or in the ground. His techniques as described are so that the tree will develop from young stock and what you need to do so the tree has Low branches, Trunk Taper and Nice movement.
This process will deliver good stock for future development in 10 years or so.

The techniques described by Ryan Neil, are for Mature trees only. Ones that have had the above work done while young, or have been collected. What he described is how to develop the final stages of the tree increase ramification and reduce needle length and get the tree ready for showing.

When we look at developing Bonsai, the first question we need to a ask is, What stage is the tree in? Growing from stock and putting on Girth and Taper, Prebonsai and growing branching, Pre bonsai and finalising branching ramification and shape, a tree ready for Display?

I see 4 distinct stages in Bonsai development, and the work done in each is very different for each stage.

Ken

[63pmp]

Thanks Ken,

It's an important distinction, though, I was looking for something else.

I notice I get 2 kinds of responses when I prune for back budding. My usual procedure is to heavy prune/trunk chop in summer, around solstice time, as I find I tend to get mature and short shoots. I especially do this on field grown plants. If I prune in winter for buck budding I tend to get faster growing juvenile shoots, especially if plants are not re-potted in spring. When I'm re-potting (or lifting) from the ground I prune to reduce root demands by foliage; mature trees I prune lightly; in training trees I prune a bit heavier. I must admit, I usually winter prune later in the season, say august, rather then may, maybe there's a difference.

I'm not saying I'm correct in doing it this way, it just works for me. I was just wondering if Neil had similar results and why he recommends winter.

Regards

Paul

[shibui]

Neli, Ken is absolutely correct that you use different techniques at different stages of development and to achieve different results. At this stage in the tree's development all I want is buds as close to the base of branches as possible. From those buds I will grow the branching and ramification. When I have some structure I change to the maintenance technique to slow the growth, keep the inner shoots alive and limit branch extension. Different outcome desired = different technigue applied.

Paul, You are correct with what you have said about response to pruning. I did not cut these in summer because: I was trying to sell them and people do not usually want to pay for hacked trees, these were dug from the grow beds last July and root pruned heavily so i wanted to allow free growth to get roots well re-established (also the price has just gone up because of the extra work i have put in to these leftover ones). Winter is not my preferred pruning time for pines I just had the time this week and wanted to show the difference between MAINTENANCE program pruning and cutting a young, developing tree to get buds closer to the base. With rough, young stock like this it does not seem to matter when you prune, the important thing I was trying to get across is that you must prune before the older needles drop in summer - next summer could be too late for some of these branches because they would have long bare bases by then.
I'd say very little difference between pruning in May or August.

[Neli]

I dont know why I stopped getting notifications of posts...Had to come check this manually.
The thing I did not understood is:
As long as pine has needles on a branch, either old or young, if you chop it and leave few needles, will it back bud? For example, it had a candle...but you chop it 3cm bellow the candle...will it back bud?
I thought the reason for leaving some candle length is for it to be able to back bud.
Did I understand this correctly? You chopped bellow the beginning of the candle?

[shibui]

Neli both will work but used at different times to achieve different results.
With a mature pine that has plenty of shoots along the branches you are trying to get buds around the base of candles so you won't be left with bare patches on the branches so cut the candle near the base and buds will form around the base of the candle.
With raw stock that has been allowed free growth there are not usually many shoots along the branches, just long branches with needles along some/ most of the length. If you just cut the candle buds will form around the base of the candle near the end of the branch leaving a long, bare branch with a cluster of shoots near the end. Some buds might form back further among the needles but most will be at the end where you cut. If you really want buds further back then cut as i have shown - as far back as you can leaving a few needles to get buds right back on the branch. You can then use those buds to grow the branch over a few years pinching and candle pruning to make plenty of buds as the branch grows a little each year and it wil give a full branch with lots of shoots.
A well fed, healthy pine will always try to produce buds on a pruned branch but can usually only make buds where there are needles so yes, if you cut 3 cm below the candle, leaving 5 or 6 pairs of needles you should get buds from the bases of some of those needles.
It is easier for the pine to make buds at the base of a candle (younger wood, not yet hardened) but living things put in a lot of effort if life is threatened so they can produce buds from the base of needles if they have no other option (ie no candle or young wood at the end of the branch)
several provisos: tree needs to be healthy and well fed for maximum results; Branch needs to have good light ( no point in going to all the trouble of growing new buds if there is not enough light for them to convert to energy); Strong candles above the target area should be removed or the tree will feed the upper candles and forget about making buds on lower branches.

Hope some of this makes sense?????

[Neli]

Thanks Neil,
my confusion stemmed from the fact that I did not know that pines will back bud if chopped like that, just leaving few needles.. I always thought it needs to be candles only...
Thanks now it is clear!
Any difference old or new needles? Or it will shoot from both...as long as it is not bare wood.?

[Shinkitai]

Thanks for a great explanation Shibui.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

[shibui]

Neli,
In my experience it doesn't matter whether they are 1 or 2 year old needles, however if they are just about to drop (oldest needles, midsummer) budding is less likely. Similarly for bare wood - If it is young (ie recently bare) and the branch has been successful (plenty of light, good growth) you can get some buds from bare wood. The older the wood and the less healthy (successful) the less chance of buds forming.

Maybe Shibui's law applies also - the more you want a bud, the less chance there is of one actually growing

[lackhand]

Maybe Shibui's law applies also - the more you want a bud, the less chance there is of one actually growing

That is so true.

[Neli]

Neli,
In my experience it doesn't matter whether they are 1 or 2 year old needles, however if they are just about to drop (oldest needles, midsummer) budding is less likely. Similarly for bare wood - If it is young (ie recently bare) and the branch has been successful (plenty of light, good growth) you can get some buds from bare wood. The older the wood and the less healthy (successful) the less chance of buds forming.

Maybe Shibui's law applies also - the more you want a bud, the less chance there is of one actually growing

Thank You Neil! Now that will avoid more mistakes on my part...including shibui's law!

[Bonsaiforest]

Hi ...I have a young JBP, trunk thickness is about an inch and is about 30cm tall, just a little question about re-potting and root pruning, if I was to heavily root prune in spring should I also reduce and prune the top at the same time...? Or should I be leave the top pruning to a later date...or should wait until new roots have had a bit of time to recover before pruning...?