help with a JBP BROWN NEEDLES

[wattynine]

viewtopic.php?f=131&t=20705&hilit=+RYAN
This is an enquiry regarding my "Ryan Neil" JBP. last post as above was in October last year. I was criticized for defoliating a little too heavily, but as an explanation did so because the needles looked like they were past there use by date, brown or browning. The tree bounced back after the last post so no probs.
I have recently re-potted but haven't posted as yet and lightly trimmed the tree as a result of this.
Now 2-3 months later yet again I have a browning off of the needles. I am aware that needles that are two or three years old will brown off but most of these are only 12 months.
Can I put to the forum, and guys that know way more then me about JBP, is it possible that extreme conditions will "age" the needle quicker and I may need to "clean" this up as a annual task.
If you can see the photos (sorry taken late in the day) the other needles appear fine, new shoots are developing fine (photo 3), so I believe the tree to be in good health, it is watered and fertilised regularly.
If I may add on a recent trip north Averil Stanley viewed the tree and we discussed the possibility of my bore water (calcium deposit rich) may be coating the needles and prematurely aging them. For this reason also my needles are not what you would call lush green but appear "dusty" green.
Conditions wise I have to say are probably in the "extreme" range, 12 hours of sun 7 days a week, no relinquish from this for at least three years as we have had no wet season over the summer periods.
Yes I have been onto the wiki and the search engine and 16 pages of "brown" and "pine" tells me don't cut the needles, "duh", but the only other browning explanation is ageing.
love some feedback please.
Many thanks in advance
Watty

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[shibui]

Not certain Watty as I have not seen this on black pines but I can suggest several possibilities:
1. fungal infection. Does not look like typical dothostroma that we get down here sometimes though - try spraying with copper fungicide.
2. some sort of mineral toxicity/ deficiency though that should affect foliage more evenly than this.
3. Black pines are temperate species and. Maybe it is trying to tell you it does not like the tropics.

[Daluke]

What's your fertilising and watering regime like?

[wrcmad]

Sorry Watty - took me 3 days to find this, but it is the most concise diagnosis flowchart for pines I have seen. It has helped me out in the past....... maybe it can help you?

pine problems.jpg

[peterb]

Hi Wrcmad
That's a very useful flowchart, is it possible to add it into the wiki
Cheers
Peterb

[wrcmad]

Hey Watty,
I had a closer look and I reckon Shibui is spot-on with his first diagnosis - fungal.
Closer inspection of your pic looks like some banding on the dying needles - suggesting needle blight(?). I have circled my suspicions:

brown needle.jpg

Fungal needle blights may start out as a spot. As the infection continues the spot grows into a band that completely encircles the needle. Eventually all of the needle tissue beyond the infection dies, resulting in needles that are green at the base and brown at the tip. In other infections, the entire needle or the entire shoot is killed and turns brown. Infection is favoured by warm, humid conditions.
As a comparison, a typical blight:

brown needle 2.jpg

Use a copper-based fungicide or other protectant fungicide such as chlorothalonil (Daconil) or Mancozeb. Apply a couple of times in early spring to protect new extending needles, and also in autumn/winter as a protective measure for the following season.

[wrcmad]

Hi Wrcmad
That's a very useful flowchart, is it possible to add it into the wiki
Cheers
Peterb

Tried - but no cigar. Wiki editing not very user friendly.
Maybe someone with a better knowledge of editing the Wiki can do it?

[wattynine]

Thanks guys, question has to come to pass, I have had two diagnoses, one is mite, one is fungal. Taking this into consideration can I treat the tree with both a copper based fungicide and Kelthane for mites with any detrimental effect on the tree?
Thanks for your help
Watty

[shibui]

I just checked the Kelthane labels Watty. Compatibility states "Do not mix with Bordeaux mixture, Lime Sulphur, Zinc sulphate or Carbaryl." Bordeaux is the one to be aware of - it is one of the copper based fungicides. It might be the reaction with the lime in the Bordeaux that is the problem rather than the copper as they have not mentioned any other copper fungicides.
There's also a warning that it may damage some house plants, especially in hot conditions.
Here's the link to the guidelines - http://www.herbiguide.com.au/Labels/DIC ... 1-1000.PDF

If in doubt, spray them separately, a couple of days apart.

[Rolf]

Hi Watty,

May I ask what is your soil condition?? Living up north I guess you have quite a bit of rain and humidity not like us here in Perth WA very dry??

I only had trouble with brown needles when the soil was too heavy!! JBP like it more on the dry side and very good drainage.

That's my experience. Hope it will help!?

Cheers

Rolf